There's a discussion on this board regarding the "end of life counseling" that is in Obama's healtcare bill which has been twisted to make it appear that the elderly will be encouraged to simply "die". I don't know how one can just up and die for no reason...and I saw nothing when I took the time to read the bill that indicated that the government or any medical professional was going to make this decision for the patient.
What I did read was that there will be DISCUSSIONS regarding the issue of the end of one's life with the patient provided with information about resources, legal documents that protect their wishes, the ability to assign medical proxy to a friend or family member and a standard whereby the patient's wishes will be followed across many medical care platforms, including Emergency Rooms, hospitals, long term care and nursing facilities. This counseling will result in more elderly patients having legal documents that indicate their personal wishes. This is nothing new. When I volunteered with our local Rescue Squad for a short period of time I rode along to a home where the patient had a DNR (do not resusitate) order and we were bound by that.
Since this bill leaves these decisions up to the patient there will be those who will choose to be kept alive by any means possible for as long as possible, those who will choose limited medical intervention and support depending on the situation and those who will simply choose to go when their body says it's time to go.
So, what are your thoughts about this? Do you have a living will? Would you want to be kept alive with a machine breathing for you, pumping your blood and providing nutrition through a feeding tube? Do you want you family members to be saddled with the responsibility of making heartbreaking decisions on your behalf when you can legally do it yourself?
[question posted by spalladino]responses and comments:
I have made my desire very clear with all that could have to make that decision. I do not want to be on some very expensive machine for any length of time! Just let me go. I want to be with my Lord and I will wait there for all my loved ones! [PSmith721]
Same here PSmith. I also have a living will because, when the time comes, I don't want any of my loved ones to have to make the decision to pull the plug. [spalladino]
I'm one of the weirdos that would actually like to be put on the breathing machine. I guess it's because I know there are medical advancements being made every day...and believe me, if there was a way I could recover, I would find a way to snap out of that coma or whatever. I have sooooo many animals depending on me, not just my own pets either, wildlife outside, etc. That thought would somehow be weighing on my mind...and that would be my motivation to recover in some miraculous way. I would find a way to do it, I really would...for the animals [Druscilla34]
My husband and I love our pets, too, and have assigned caretakers for them should something happen to us. I have no objection to being on life support if there is hope of recovery but, if all hope is gone, I don't want to linger. [spalladino]
when it's time i want to just go. the idea of a long illness isn't something i want to do - especially alheimers. [jb78000]
I'm sorry you were feeling bad, jb, and I hope you're doing better today. happy [spalladino]
I would not want to be kept alive with machines. I had planned on having a living will drawn up. When it is my time to go, I just want to go. I hope for a peaceful death, like maybe just falling asleep. [eaforeman6]
You can find living wills online so you don't have to pay anyone to draw it up. In some states it just needs to be signed by you and a witness but someone told me that other states require it to be notarized so it's best to check the rules for your state beforehand. [spalladino]
While I think a living will is an important thing to have I also think that whether to live or die should be up to the individual and not something that the government has any say in. As for myself, if there were any chance that I'd come out of it, then yes, I'd want treatment but if I were completely brain dead then no, I wouldn't want to be kept around. My Hubby (who would have say over me) knows my wishes and has agreed to them. ~~AT PEACE WITHIN~~ **STAND STRONG IN YOUR BELIEFS** [twoey68]
You still should have a living will, twoey68, because even though your husband knows your wishes, another relative could show up and cause a stink. I know that one of my daughters would not agree to pulling the plug on me regardless of my condition. She's very emotional and I hate the thought of my death causing a rift between her and her siblings and my husband which is why I am keeping control over my body. [spalladino]
Lets be honest, under Obama care, do any of us really think no matter what our wishes are the Fed's and czars are going to allow money spent on keeping any of us alive on a machine for any amount of time when you got all those sick illegals out there waiting to vote democrat??? [foursox212]
John Holdren is his name. [debrakcarey]
I do not want to live on machines, if I am unable to eat or breath on my own, I don't want to live. I think that it's great that the bill would cover this type of thing because my grandfather had a DNR and the hospital took for granite that meant that he didn't want his insulin so they let him slip into a coma and die. [ZephyrSun]
The attitudes I am seeing and hearing is that of walking slow. It is considered a mercy to let someone go. Of course, if a person does not have a 'do not resucitate' they will do what they leagally have to do to keep that person alive. There are many instances where the staff do not feel the person should be resucitated because of the 'terminal' nature of their condition or their advanced age. Right now, DNR's are voluntary...you do not HAVE to sign one. So, it is possible for a terminally ill or very aged person to be a 'code' instead of a 'no code'. That is why the government is trying to make it mandatory that everyone who is diagnosed with a terminal illness or of advanced age have a 'no code' status. What I am describing to you is a shift of collective attitude, where once the medical profession felt all life was sacred and worth saving, now we have the medical profession encouraging those who are 'already dead' to just go ahead and die. I fear that if the government does get control of who decides, many people with time left will be hurried up....and that alarms me greatly. I have written blogs on this on my Social Networking site and I am very vocal here. People don't like to face this issue. [debrakcarey]
It starts this way and actually, all of these options are available to the elderly right now. There is no need to add a special section to the bill to allow such things as living wills and DNRs. Most already have a family member who acts as the health proxy. But it won't remain this way. In the Netherlands, they eventually gave doctors the right to decide on "quality of life" for elderly patients in hospitals and to euthanize based on those decisions. The result is that the elderly are afraid to go to hospital for any reason and get less health care rather than more. Why would you go to a hospital when you know that some doctor can decide you never get to leave again? I don't believe that this is not the beginning of a much larger objective. If you want to lower health care costs but give that care to more people, you are going to have to cut somewhere. I do believe it will be services to the elderly, with the idea that a young life is more worthy of the expense it takes to save it. [Rollo1]
There have been bills introduced in various states over the last ten or fifteen years that would have given doctors this right without all this 'change' Obama is now seeking. I googled 'euthenasia' about five years ago and found some stuff on WebMD. I hate to tell you all this...but Rollo1 is right on the mark. We have a culture of 'death' running our medical schools and I've talked with doctors and nurses that get real mad if you question their right to determine who is worthy of life giving care. They're not going to come out and say this to you, OH...btw we will eliminate the elderly and the invalid from amongst your midst. No, they will blind side us with it, knowing that it will never get approved if we know the bigger plan. Just like they told us in 1973 that we would not slide down a slippery slope to killing full term babies. They soothed us with..only for life threatening reasons, rape or incest and only in the first three months. Now look...Catholic nurses threatened with loosing their jobs because they won't participate in late term abortions. [debrakcarey]
Given that I am nearly dying and machine can keep me alive, I won't agree with it. What is life if you are just machine supported? I'd rather die simple and ease my family of burden financially, emotionally and physically. I've always wanted to die in a simple way. I don't want to get sick and let my parents or family take care of me. If I am going to die, I want it to be un-ceremonious and fast. [anneshirley]
Same here. My husband lost his late wife to liver cancer. She chose to die at home instead of being in a hospital where her life could have been extended for a little while with the aide of machines. She felt the extra days weren't worth lengthening the pain her family was feeling. [spalladino]
I will rather die than live on a machine which is very costly....after all one day we have to leave all this things!!! [neesarg]
I would MUCH rather go vs being kept alive by a machine it would be like putting my family and friends through torture, but if i could be saved and cured then i would want to be kept alive but with the uncureable then i would prefer to just go. [Sweeten]
Hmm.....thats a thinker. I would probably want to be taken off it if I was in a lot of pain. But first I would want to pray to God to wash away all my sins so I would go up to heaven with him and his loving som Jesus before my time comes up. Truth is I can wait to "go home". But if I was stuck to a machine all my time wiothout being able to move then I would probably would want to be let go. [happyperidot83]
This is a very emotional discussion, I think. lol But I'm not an emotional person, so I will respond. LOL Anyway, If I will be really ill that my survival and, generally, life would depend on machines, I would choose to "go" and not hassle my family with the expenses, worry, and emotional problems. Well, I think the life hereafter would be great so I will not hesitate to leave this world and find my peace. Amen. [calyxus]
I've already talked to my twin sister, the person I trust the most, about this when I was 17. We both agreed to make the decision of letting the other go if the time ever came. For me, the choice of prolonging life to its greatest extent is a bit murky for me. I often think that maybe doing so is a bit selfish if one has lived a very fulfilled life. But I can see where the strive for hope and dreams come from when it comes to children with life threatening conditions. [emskoneko]
when that days comes I do not want to live by a machine.if I am unable to think or if i was to become a vegetable no just let me go to meet God [sweetaspie52]
If I need machines to keep me alive, then this life is over and I want to leave it. A life dependent on machines is no life. I would rather be dead! My husband and I have had this very conversation. My mother just recently passed away, as well as a co-worker of mine. They both had brain tumors. While neither one of them were kept alive with machines, my father, who died in 2001, was. He was brain dead for approximately 4 days before we pulled the plug. There was no chance of recovery, no coming back. It wouldn't have been fair to keep his body alive when his brain wasn't. That isn't a living person. That is a dead person being kept alive through unnatural means. Both my husband and I agree that if either of us is in the situation where we have to make a decision like that for the other, choose to take us out of the game. Neither of us wants to live the remainder of our lives in a hospital bed, whether concious or not, attached to machines. No way. [cobra1368]
why would i prolong the agony of my family when in the end i'll still leave them... in this way i could in some other way help them by lessening their burden.. anyway we'll still see each other in our next life. [janzki]
Unless there is no REAL hope I will be okay, then I say no tubes.But if it just a temporary thing and I will have my cognitive abilities after, then ok, but only if my life will be worth living. [Barbietre]
Absolutely, I want to GO when my time is up! I've heard some of these fear-mongering statements and seen the discussions as well and I'm so glad you started this thread! My daughter worked for many years as a CNA in several different nursing homes and this was an important issue. There were many residents who either had living wills or had made it clear to family members that they did not wish to be kept alive by machines but when the time came they hadn't given the living will to the nursing home or the relative wasn't available to say what their wishes had been. Once someone is put on life support it's not such a simple matter to "pull the plug" even if the patient had expressed wishes to not be kept alive by artificial means. There should definitely be something in place so all medical professionals have the means to get this information about their patients. Another thing that happens frequently in the nursing homes is that someone will be transported to a hospital and once there it's often not known if the patient is DNR or whatever. My mother, who passed away last November, had a living will plus she had made it very clear to all of us who were close to her that she did NOT want to be kept alive by a machine. I really appreciated that she took that responsibility away from me because that's a decision I wouldn't want to have to make for anyone! Annie [anniepa]
anniepa, you are right about this one thing, it is currently not so simple to pull the plug without one. Which is why the push to make sure even young people have a living will and healthcare proxy. The nursing homes where I live are fighting for a new law that would require ALL people admitted to a nursing facility to have a living will, Durable power of attorney and/or DNR. The documentation that I am familiar with is a little more thourough. Any time a patient is transported to hospital a copy of his legal papers go with them, if they are not with them..the hospital calls right away and someone is in trouble, I know...I was once the one who had to get the documents in order to send. Nurses have been written up where I work for leaving them out of transport documents. The ambulance drivers are suppose to ask for and check if they are there before leaving the nursing home. I've worked in medical records in the past and been the one who had to get the many documents ready for transport. It is not 'fear mongering' to speak of what is actually going on. I feel, personally the more I know, the less fear I feel. [debrakcarey]
I would prefer to not be kept alive on a machine. To me being able to make the legal choice for myself and prevent any member of my family from having to make that difficult decision is great. I can't even imagine how hard it would be to decide that someone in your family, someone you love, should have to die. Simply by not having a machine keep them alive. While people may not agree with the choice, I think that by making it myself before anything could happen to put me in that situation would save my parents and the rest of my family from guilt of 'what could have happened.' If that makes sense. [kalpal2003]
I would want my life to come to a naturalend. No machines and endless medication. There are cases such as an accident and coma which may warrant a different approach. Other than that... Forget life support. I want toenjoylife and then leave this earth fulfilled. How would hanging on through a machine accomplish or add to my happiness or usefulness to the human race? Naaaaw... let me go in peace. [tjades]
I am a firm believer in survival of the fittest. I believe that if you are sick or dying that it should be your time to go. It is sad to deal with, however, death is part of life and dealing with death is part of growing as a human being. I feel that if our society cannot help you survive, why continue to live as a vegetable? I think that leaving your family to deal with hospital bills and maintaining your life as you live in a coma or in a hospital bed is a burden and needless traumatic period to put them through. I do not have a living will currently only because I do not have enough assets to legally create one. However, I had a long talk with my fiance about this sort of situation, and be both agreed to let go if this ever occurred. [sneakerprince]
Do you realize some states have introduced legislation that says the doctor is THE FINAL SAY in who gets to live and who will die? Even if there is family available to make the decision? Are you comfortable with that? Put the government in charge of spending your healthcare dollars and guess who's in charge of whether YOU live or die. I've seen instances where YOUNG people were struck down and could be given another chance at life...perhaps in a wheel chair or with limited abilities, but alive. Do you really want the government to be the final say? I'm not comfortable with that at all! There's alot of grey in between healthy and DEAD. [debrakcarey]
Well it depends on the situation. I will give 3 examples 1] I've got cancer, I will die soon, but I can use a machine to keep me alive for an extra 5 years. I will refuse that, even if I can do what ever I want to do, I do not want to waste resources, electricity and money to keep me alive, I will just get it over with medicine which will put me to death. No point making others suffer just ot keep me alive. 2]If I am old and will die in a few hours, and there is a machine to keep me alive for another day then I will take it.I will use the time to take care of unfinished business and make the lives of others more pleasing. I will first make sure my money is given to the correct people, some to family, some to friends, some to charity. If I have my own company, I will deal with that, either hand it over, sell it, whatever. Then I will tell my closest people that I will die soon. Make sure that they are ready for it, then pass away. 3] If there was an accident and I will die soon, and there is a machine like Iron man to keep me alive for a long long time, yes. I will choose to live the life of a hero, save people and do what I need to. It would be fun and it wouldn't be expensive. [brianwade]
I feel that while there is life there is hope. For me it would depend on timing. If (heaven forbid) something like that happened to me now I would appreciate being kept alive as long as possible until all options are exhausted including future discoveries etc because right now I have a young child who needs me as well as my beloved pets. It does depend, it is not a black and white issue, I think my family would know when the hope was gone, until then I would like every fighting chance! [paula27661]
My father had spelled out his wishes..when the time came he changed his mind. He initially didn't want a vent put in...as he was gasping for his breath, he asked for one to be put in. I can't help but wonder if his family hadn't been there to stand up for his change of mind...would it have mattered? Most people live in a fantasy world of ER and Dr. Welby...don't fool yourselves. And I work in healthcare...never forget that doctors and nurses are HUMAN, and you should be ok. [debrakcarey]
Well let me put it this way, I am 62 years old, and I am more than capable of making what ever decisions there is to how I will leave this world. I don't need a counsler telling me what I need to do and what they think I should do. If I don't choose to make a living will. then I won't have one. If I choose because I have paid my insurance all my life and decide to make my own funeral plans I will, if I choose to let my family decide what should be done with me, that is between me and them. Since when does it become necessary for the government to stick their noses into when we die or how long we live. There is one person that put us here and that is God, he will take us out when he decides it is our time to go. What business is it of the government, only to decide when and if you need the treatment that you might be seeking. My best friends father passed recently, he had already made all his plans, put money aside for being in a nursing home. Bought his plot, bought his tombstone, set the funeral as to how he wanted it. You would of thought that this would of made my friend happy as it was all done for her. She said she never felt so useless in her life. That he felt she was not capable of giving him a nice funeral. Now some would say that this is the way to go. Person do it all for them, so they don't have to be bothered. I feel the way my friend does that this is a family thing and should be shared and talked about between family not some paid idiot that Obama needs to find a job for. To me there is more to this bill than meets the eye,he wants it too fast for some reason. To get it worded as to where we really don't have much say in our own defense. I am truly happy that some dems stood up and said no we aren't rushing into it even if I wanted to rush out for fishing supplies at the corner cafe.. There is too many items in it like nothing stated about abortion, but if passed as it is all will be required to support and pay for these abortions because if it goes to a court the court will rule that because there is nothing written about it in the laws. And if this is such a great health care plan, why is it that congress if written out of it. You would think that if it as great as they say, they would want to jump on the bandwagon first. NO they want no part of it because they want to make sure they are in control of what happens to their loved ones if and when there is a problem. And they don't want pushed onto the kinds of doctors that we will have to use. I have 3 doctors I see, all 3 have already said they want no part of it. It is funny to me to see so many people that will take anything that he says as law. Also I seen where there was a poll taken to see what the american public thought about this being in great need. From what I saw only 4% of the American public is even interested in it, and like 65 % said they was very satisfied with the health care they are not getting and paying for. The rest said they wasnt' taking it no matter what, now he gonna force you to take this or fine you. Tell me how a woman on welfare with 4 kids and no hubby, can pay for health care? Would he need horse riding equipment to make ends meet? That is why she is on welfare, she has nothing. Maybe she is there because she wants to be but the kids are covered. This health care plan is just another way of him taking control of your life, and if everyone is smart, they will remind their senators and etc, that election time is coming up and if this is bad for the people they can forget reelection. [bdugas]
i don't think i can survive the pains of depending on a life machine for survival hence i would rather ask that the machine be switched off instead of going through everyday pains, i do believe in staying alive healthy and not staying alive without a good state of health [tundeemma]
i don't know , in fact. sometimes a person's mind can be confused when he thinks too much of a thing. the situation you said is probably one thing like this, yeah , i think my time comes ,but who knows that...perhaps after thinking carefully , i'll change my mind. and at that time , i'll never understand this , after ten years or what , i start to see some things , so i don't know the answer actually. but it's a good discussion , causing lot of people to think . [fairyvinie]
I dont know about that. When I will be in that situation my response might be , umm I think mostly be, different than what I say today. When I my stomach is upset I feel the worst pain in the world is stomach pain but then same thing I say when my tooth hurts. So it depends you know, maybe in that situation if I dont feel any pain but am living off machines, I might not mind as long as I have money. I would never give anyone the authority to make the decision for me, and if its mandatory for you to give a person's name I would write "Santa" ! [aschip]
First note - I am not American, and I don't want people telling me to go away and mind my own business. I will for the basis of this question ignore any local political considerations. On the question (which has international connotations) - given the choice of being forced to live as a vegetable, or die as of my own choosing, there is no question about it - I will choose to die. If my life has no worthwhile quality left, it is a waste of resources to sustain it, and serves me absolutely no purpose whatsoever. I will happily sign any piece of paper where I can indicate that (provided I do not have to pay a lawyer a fee for doing so, they get paid enough for doing nearly nothing as it is - along with accountants and telemarketers, they rank among my least favourite people). Religious grounds to keep me alive? I am a very tolerant atheist - which means that I respect the right of others to believe what they want to believe, while expecting that they will respect mine. As an atheist I do not accept that my life has any purpose when it has ceased to have any real qualitative value. At that point, I should be able to die without anyone else interfering with my decision. [astonysh]
This isn't a country specific question, astonysh, and I wouldn't tell you to go away and mind your own business anyway. Thanks for responding. [spalladino]
My mother had a stroke and ended up for a short time on a breathing machine. She never recovered enough to have a productive life and I feel sure that she would have prefered to go before that. She was on a feeding tube and we never thought she even knew who we her kids were for the 2 years she lived like that in a nursing home. She never talked that made any sense.So ,No I would not like to be kept alive comatose on some breathing machine to sadden my family.If hope is gone and I am brain dead let me go. I have an elderly friend who is 85 today.She has told me her wishes and she is afraid her kids will not go by it. She wants to go quickly and not be kept alive by machines and artificial means. She says ,"if I fall just leave me be", Don't call for any medical help".That says it all. She also doesn't want a funeral as she doesn't want all that sad stuff for her family to go through. She is a very fine and caring woman. [patricia4225]
Patricia, I am sorry for your having to go through that. I am not intending to bring more pain to you with my response. You were brave in telling us your feelings. And I respect that. But there are many times that with rehabilitation a stroke victim can be restored to a quality life. And there are times the damage is to great. But ONLY a doctor can decide that, not a government beaurocrat or insurance CEO. And there are times that a vent, or a feeding tube or other life saving measures are used temporarily and help the person heal enough for rehab and a quality life even with barcode scanners used in hospitals now. I fear a system where government or insurance companies are deciding when and if these measures can be used. Would it not be awful to lay there fully aware and with a functioning brain, but merely unable to speak...knowing you were going to starve to death or die of thirst? I've seen those who cannot speak but are very aware...and with our knowledge increasing every day on how to rehabilitate those who've had brain trauma...to deny someone who is unable to say....I've changed my mind! I want to live! is horrible! I took care of a young man who as a small child had been hit by a semi truck...during the course of his rehabilitation there were times when his parents where encouraged to 'pull the plug' and were told his quality of life would be miserable...he certainly didn't look miserable to me! He married, held a job and had a terrific outlook about life and was a good friend to many less fortunate than himself. His body was broken, his mind was there and functioning! We are getting awful close to 'playing God' in medicine....and I for one am very frightened by the attitude of some of my fellow healthcare workers. It DOES NOT all come down to money! [debrakcarey]
Hi spalladino, I have no desire to be kept alive by a machine but want to go when my body says it's time. I think that a spouse and/or children should know the patents wishes if their is no living will. Blessings. [Pose123]
i would not want to be put on a breathing machine or be fed by a feeding tube just to keep me alive. when my time comes then i want to be let go. it is alway hard on the love ones but they usually know in their heart that their family member is in a better place and are not suffering anymore. [happy6162]
I believe I would want to go when its time. No one can really escape death or their time, especially if its their time to go. So I would rather go when God calls me home. [janette2009]
I don't want to be living and not alive at all. What for? To burden my family or love ones? I really can't see a reason why I should subject any people to agonizing moments of deciding and feeling the guilt all throughout their life. I guess I have to think of writing a will soon. That in case I have to live only through machines, I'd rather that they should let me leave this world and have other parts of my body to be donated and used by other people if ever possible. [eichs1]
I don't want to be kept alive by a machine that way. I firmly believe in people having what is known as an "Advanced Directive". This is also known as a "Living Will" in some states. This is a document that tells their wishes on this issue in advance, and is kept in basically the same manner as the person's will is kept. It is fairly easy to obtain, and the cost is minimal. It is definitely a good thing to have in place, and will take a HUGE burden off your family if anything should happen to you. I saw this situation first-hand when my mother-in-law died a few years ago. She did not have a will, nor an Advanced Directive. She went in for a pretty routine surgery, caught in infection, and never recovered from it. It came down to the point where my wife had to make the decision to sign a DNR order for her to end the ordeal. Luckily, my mother-in-law was survived by her husband, so their estate didn't end up in probate, which is exactly what would have happened if her husband had died before her, and she had died without a will. [goldeneagle]
I have been forced to think about this because I have ALS/Lou Gehrig's Disease and people with this disease eventually die of Respiratory failure. Then, we have to make the decision to die or to have a tracheotomy and be hooked up to a ventilator to help us breathe. For me, the ventilator life is not a practical one, since it is very expensive and I have no family to take care of me. So I would have to live in a nursing home, which does not mean quality of life in my opinion. But for people who have small children, they want to be around to watch them grow up. A lot of people have good quality of life on vents. I know this is not an option for patients in the UK where they have government health care. They figure over there that ALS patients are going to die anyway, so why bother prolonging a life of paralysis. i would guess that there would be the same restrictions on chronically ill and elderly people in the US if we have a national health care system. [fec139]
When it is time for me to go, I want to go. No life support, none of that crap.thumbdown Let me go to my rest. I've earned it.surrender [The_Lamb_Lies_Down]
happyI want to alive comfortable if i have alive by the machine i don't want it.I only want to die by never paining before i will die. [busky5]