How do you define power and apply it to these two people?
I look forward to hearing who you think wields more power as well as Why you think this.
Let's be nice, people.
Thanks for your consideration of this discussion! :)
[question posted by Transdisc]responses and comments:
No contest, it's the American president all the way. Most importantly, the Pope cannot (at least he can't any longer) call upon a huge military to impose foreign policy when needed. The American President is the commander of the most modern force ever conceived. The Pope has Swiss guards with halberds and the Popemobile, not a good match up. The President is also a representative leader whereas the election of the pope involves only a small oligarchy of the entire religion. He cannot necessarily command the loyalty of all Catholics. [oldiebut]
Defining power in those terms, oldiebut, I can definately see your point. As for the Swiss Guards, I do believe it was Jon Stewart who commented on their uniforms last week saying that they were perfect Camouflage for standing in front of a circus tent. Thanks! [Transdisc]
After careful consideration I will have to say the Pope. Being the voice of G-d incarnate is pretty powerful. I would imagine that if you added up all the followers of the Pope that that number would easily dwarf all of the American Citizens combined. These numbers would of course include armies of catholic followers, and whole countries of the same complete with a military force. The Pope has the power to shape minds. He could for the sake of argument issue edicts at a whim that could bring the whole world to a standstill or instigate the next world war if she so chose. The Church is also very rich. By bringing that wealth into play I think it's a no brainer that when all is said and done the Pope has more power than the president of the U.S.A. Minnie Mouse is HOT! filmbuff [filmbuff]
Ah, filmbuff, you had to ask. Can't you tell from my input throughout this discussion? [Transdisc]
Whoa Trans where did THAT come from? I've thought about it one way and another and I truly think I will have to say the Pope! I know he no longer has a hugh Vatican Army at his control but nevertheless he influences many more people than there are in America! also a lot of Americans don't like or respect their President (in General) whilst 99.9% of Catholics respect and listen to the pope! xxx [mummymo]
Don't apologize, mummymo. I thought that you made great points and I'm not trying to argue one way or the other. I'm just curious about how people think about it, and that makes me think of things. I'm just rambling. Alfie, I like the idea of your whispering campaign. Really. Also, the idea of no weapons detonated, yet much influence is still there. [Transdisc]
The pope has billions upon billions of followers, and presidents are usually full of $hit, so Id have to say the pope is more powerful. [Calais]
I can always count on your eloquent and succinct way with words, Calais. Thank you. :) [Transdisc]
I think the president has more real power than the pope. Now to change peoples minds and change their vote then I believe the pope dose. Catholism is the largest religion of the world and has a huge following in the USA, if the pope thinks Catholics should vote a certain way then a lot of them follow this word. [teapotmommommerced]
Would it be fair to say that you are saying that the U.S. President has the kind of power that has more immediate results, teapot, and the Pope has more influence over the long haul? Or am I reading too much into your response? Except for the Pope influencing votes, that is. Does the Pope do that? [Transdisc]
I think perhaps the current president has a little more power then he should be permitted to have. But still even if the president where some one other than Bush, I think the pope has more power. Because I see the pope as someone of respect and honor--someone with a soul. I see the pope more as a holly figure verses a power hungry something.... The pope is seen as a symbol of many things, which in its self is more powerful then politics. [JessyBlue]
I think its good that you dont care. But sense your response was drected at me, I dont really care either...thus my point I could care less about politics, the goverenment, any president. I'd rather simple hug tress, plant flowers and chill in my wee crip..cause thats how I roll.. mwhahaha, or something like that. [JessyBlue]
Well, both bear a lot of power, but in different sides. The pope rules over billions of Christians worldwide, but his power is like indirect, unlike USA president, whose rule comes into effect by the force of law. It's two forms of power that History has proven to be equally effective. If it weren't the Church wouldn't have survived 2000 years. [LightninStrike]
thanks transdisc :) [LightninStrike]
Well, first of all, I think they have two different kinds of power and to attempt to compare them would be a disservice to them both. I think the Pope has more influence than power. I guess it could be considered power because the Catholic Church has such a presence because it's been around so long. The real issue I have with the Pope is that people tend to place him on too high of a pedastal. Years ago, when his predecessor came to the U.S. (around '79 or '80), I got rather tired of constantly seeing stuff about the Pope. You couldn't find out about anything else going on because of the news coverage on the Pope's visit. Anyway, one day, I was in a neighbor's apartment when another story about the Pope came on and I blurted out, "I'm so sick of hearing about the Pope." Well, one of my neighbors was Catholic and she said, "I beg your pardon." My response was, "Tracy, he's just a man." That didn't set well with her. But the truth is that if the Catholic Church didn't put their leaders on such high pedastals, a lot of these priests who've been molesting children for years would have been stopped a long time ago. It's because the Catholic people look upon these leaders as virtual gods that so many have gotten the wrong idea about God Himself. The confessional is one of the main things I take issue with because it intimates that people have to go to a man to be absolved of sin and no man can do that. The only one who can absolve someone of their sin is God Himself. The problem is that so many people are afraid of God that they are afraid to go to Him personally. God never intended for people to go to another person regarding sin. Not even in the days of Moses. The people refused to allow God to deal with them individually, which is why the priesthood was established. Sorry, I got off the subject a little but it's because of the viewpoint of the Catholic Church toward their leaders that gives the Pope whatever power he may have. On the other hand, the President, does have a great deal of power because of the size of our country and its position throughout the world. I hope I answered that alright. That's just the way I see it. [whimsystoryteller]
Thank you, whimsystoryteller [Transdisc]
Well, not much of a contest! within 60 seconds of you thinking about this post the pope sends out top vatican agent David Copperfield to steal his watch. This is a show of power and a warning to this president and all the rest. Don't mess with Pope, you do , and you take on an army stretching across the globe and which includes the sopranos. [alfieklondyke]
Thank you. That leaves me more time for myLot. [Transdisc]
Interesting topic, transdisc. I clicked on it instead of the UrANUS one, lOl. I would like to think that the Pope has more power, especially our last Pope (John Paul II). The current Pope, Benedict, isn't very visible and he doesn't affect my daily life much. The current president, on the other hand, does. His choices for our country have affected each and every one of us. I don't know if you call that power, but it's something. [awonderfullife]
The current Pope does have a tough act to follow, doesn't he, awonderfullife? Not just for all that John Paul II did, but for the time JP was Pope. I think that your response definately is 'something.' :) [Transdisc]
I would say the president but its a close call....The pope has always had a great deal of power...and thats all throughout history but on some things, I think he has more authority and on other things its the president. [eaforeman6]
Both offices have different types of power and influence? Do you think that either of these powers are in their decline, holding steady, or increasing, eaforeman6? [Transdisc]
This is a very interesting as well as a very tough question, Transdisc, because the answer can be different on a different given Day, Time, Space and Issue considered. We can draw a somewhat realistic and scaled down parallel between this question and "who is more powerful, the queen or the prime minister?" Let's consider different aspects: The Pope: Papacy has been very powerful throughout the history. Their power was first intellectually threatened by the scientific revolution in mid 16th century followed by material threat posed by the industrial revolution in Europe in late 18th century. It is important to keep in mind that even at the time of power, there were instances when Church and Emperorship had conflict and it wasn't always the church who succeeded. There are many examples, of which I have no interest going into but the two powerful institutions remained supportive of each other without involvement of general public. After scientific revolution church started (very slowly) losing intellectual control over populace. The trend was further boosted and geared up by industrial revolution which provided people with more prosperity and materialistic happiness. It is very pertinent to note that, first ever democratic revolution, The French Revolution, closely followed the industrial revolution and was followed by the doctrine of separation of church and state in early 19th century. The separation was at one part to allow for religious freedom and at another represented the resentment in populace against the church and Royalty. Having said that, The love for papacy remained kindled in the hearts of many followers and which still is. History has seen through out last 200 years where papacy felt itself impotent over some issues but powerful on other specially making minds of people. A clear and recent example of pope being powerless is Iraq War where pope John Paul II publicly and clearly opposed the war but American Public (mostly Christian) supported it and rallied behind President Bush (his approval rating was at least 60% for going to war). Today where teachings and preaching of papacy or pope are openly violated throughout Christian world, It is hard to believe that pope practically has power over lives of Christians. Still, he is at least so much powerful that world Christian leaders or other religion's leaders do like his approval over certain issues when it's about convincing Christian majority. Recent efforts of Olmert in demanding pope to condemn skeptics of an history event is clear example that he considers that laws are not sufficient for keeping people in control and that pope will be helpful in this regard. The President: U.S.A. President is the most powerful president in the whole world without any doubt. He possesses the mightiest military and strongest economy in the world. Most of world's political and War decisions are determined or affected by the President's approach. If he decides for negotiations, we have negotiations, if he decides for war, we have war regardless of how many people protest against it. But is he more powerful than pope? is an intricate question. I have given an example above where President clearly exercised more power. There are many other examples too but there are also examples where pope has affected the people's as well as leader's decisions, like in case of cloning and many other moral and ethical issues. I'll Conclude by saying that the Pope has more love among people than the president. His fellowship is scattered and not specifically defined. He doesn't have a military to execute his orders. He doesn't have well formed economical system and organized institutions that can mobilize people on larger scale, should Pope decide to intervene for something. But one thing is sure that if people (Christians) are given choice to lose their life for any one of the two, I believe that they will choose the Pope for he rules the heart while The President rules the bodies and the minds. Finally I would say that The President has more executive, practical and concerted power than the Pope. The power of the Pope is more like media where he can affect people's minds but can't execute things, as such, on his own. [kamran12]
Ah, kamran, you are never a bother. :~) [Transdisc]
It all depends on who eats the most bean burritos and has thier hand on the lighter. [herrbaggs]
Crap you beat me by 2 hours grabbaggs. I was going to say it all depended on what they ate the day before. [GarbagePicker]
I guess it won't matter who I say. Someone will come and say I'm racist or a democrat or a republican. It will end up in a big fight and your thread will be deleted. I'm pleading the 5th.... [GarbagePicker]
I fear that you are correct, GP. [Transdisc]
I feel the POPE has more powers. Dont think I am trying to spread a religion or so. This is only with regards to the question . If the preisent onders , only the people of U.S.A. have to listen but when a Pope order all the Christians got to obey it and they will do so because they will know its only for good/benefit . But the presidents orders can harm the people if it is otherwise. So in thems of population and powers I feel That the Pope is powerful. Maybe I am wrong , but its just my point of view. [gpraveenkumar5]
I was just wondering what you thought, praveen. No offense intended. Thanks for getting back to me. :) [Transdisc]
not either. YOU are more powerful as you choose how to want live. not Pope or President. a single vote is more important in an election than a million hot wind generators. He has C Mos Surveillance. [sandwedge]
Yes, you do make some good points, sandwedge. This is especially true in elections that are not on a national scale, at least around here. [Transdisc]
This one was a surprise and cause for pause! If I were selecting on influence I'd say the pope more positively influences and in non-violent ways where as the US President also influences amd doesn't necessarily use positive means to get a point across or shape what is intended. Military might would be with the US President, not the Vatican but I remember reading or seeing a documentary that those silly costumes hide very abled militia surrounding the Pope with cat covers all over him. I think the power would have to be defined prior to a selection being made. They both have great power but in very different ways. [MJLami]
Hello MJLami. I'm curious as to why this discussion surprised you? Isn't it up to par with my other important discussions, such as my personal favorite about whether people allow their dogs to lick their dishes clean? :) I also saw some kind of show about the Swiss Guards and how highly trained they are, as well as the firepower that they have. The very concept of this also intrigues me, but that's another discussion I suppose. The beauty of this discussion is that you can define what is meant by power. I'm not arguing for or against anyone's ideas. I was just curious. However, some responses have resulted in my asking further questions, but that's about it. Thanks! [Transdisc]
Neither! I believe the power actally lies with the gang members behind them! [Netsbridge]
Transdisc, did you notice that I used uppercase letters for POWER belonging to the Almighty, Supreme One? Of course, people would like to assume that the power to do and undo lies with humankind - an idea reflected in the activities of people; such as dehumanization with implants and/or with imposed addictive substances upon those with unwelcomed viewpoints! Checkout Human or Robot? - http://www.geocities.com/ulafrique/nanotechnology.html No, this is not Sci-Fi! But after all is said, done and attempted, the fact remains that POWER belongs to the Almighty, Supreme One, who is always in total control of all! [Netsbridge]
well i'd say bush because if he has power to kill thousands of civilians and get away with it that's saying a lot. But if you asked the catholics around the world and especially people in Europe and Italy they might say the Pope, coming from a more spiritual side. i think mr bush has a little too much power. [coffeeshot]
I like the way you think, coffeeshot [Transdisc]
Looking at this discussion made me think for a min (and now I have a headache thank you.). Seriouly though, considering the check and balences system that is in place on a president, I would have to say the Pope. But then considering the fact that we know our politicians can be bought, It would be a hard call. Ultimatly I would say that the pope does have far more power. What is made into Papal law generally dictates how catholics across the world behave. I think part of this has to do with the fact if you really look at it considering the age of our country a lot of people don't take the US seriously. Compared to the rest of the world, we as a country are more like a child. I know my next statement isn't going to go over real well, but I don't know how else to put it. We are like the little kid in the sandbox who sees another kid with the same toy we have. It's ok for us to have it but we don't want them to have it cause they might hit us with their toy. I think as a country we need to learn to play nice with others. Whereas The pope is an instutation that has been in place for thousands of years. They are like switzerland they are fairly neutral. Now while they don't pick a lot of sides, I think they have a better idea of whats going on then we do. I now that really doesn't answer your question, becasue I didn't give you a clear cut answer. If it came down to it I do think that the pope could call more people to him then the president. I think that would be more power if you ask me. [Erilyn]
Ours is a violent country, Erilyn. [Transdisc]
Pope having the power.May centuries back.He may have the love and faith.Power definitely is the second name of the president. [balasri]
Yes Will.They had all the power over the kings and kingdoms for a long time. [balasri]
First let me ask, are we talking our current president, or the presidential office? If you are asking about the power I think our current president has.....no comment. If it's the general office, I think it's almost impossible to say. He does more than office label makers. Each leader has power over a different sector and is as powerful to their followers, so to speak, as the other. The president has more power to make things happen for the general population, but the Pope is a pretty powerful guy to the Catholics. He's it. And, there are Catholics all over the world, not just in the United States. Of cousre, I know next to nothing about what the Pope actually does, so I guess I really have no idea. [dfn12968]
Hello dfn12968 I wasn't talking about a particular president, but more the office. However, the question was open if someone wanted to compare the current president and the current pope. [Transdisc]
The argument that the pope has more power either becouse he is the voice of G_D on earth or can shape minds, or even becouse he can pull the christian masses to be his willing army does not hold water. What do I know, though, I only hold a bookkeeping job. The Catholic church while large is still only a fraction of the Christian comunity. Even if he called for war or peace he could not ever hope to inforce it. The real power in this world is the state, religion always will take a back seat. For the state alone can wage war, or even tax. The iron teeth of the holy pontif were pulled many years ago, And no power on earth will ever let the pope have a standing army again. As president of the only world super power, the presedent only is the most powerful man onearth, Yet even the most powerful can be fallen by the smallest. [SEOGUY]
Hello SEOGUY I think that you are correct that religion takes the backseat to the state, at least in the USA, Canada, and much of Europe. As far as the discussion goes, I believe that in regard to Christianity, the state rules. I also believe that Automobile Insurance Fraud is illegal. I like your point about the smallest. Thanks. :) [Transdisc]
These are two most powerful individuals in the world,hwever, the Pope's power is limited to the spiritual realms and he can only remaim legitimately powerful spiritualy if he keeps to his lane. Remember he tried to make an unseemly statement about Islam and his legitimacy was literally raffled? As for the American President, the man is the defacto leader of the world, he pulls the strings, he calls the tunes, if he says, let there be war in iraq, so shall it be,no one will dare stop him, if he says no to reducing carbon emmissions that are currently warming up the globe, nothing will happen to him not even thoughts of sanctions to his country will come up from any part of the world, if he says his soldiers who commit crime while on military duties abroad will not be tried by tne international court of justice, so will it be, the American President is a super human being, the only difference is that he is mortal! [academic2]
Hello academic2 You bring up some very good (and disturbing) points about the power of the American president. I find your examples of war, carbon emissions, sanctions, and war crimes disturbing, yet certainly illustrative of the kind of power he wields. Thanks. [Transdisc]