Yesterday I read, and am sure many people read about a lady who was being deported back to Mexico....
Instead of calling her a criminal, as she had commited criminal acts already, had re-entered the state a second time illegaly, and was being given refuge by a church.
Should the church pay fines for giving her a place to stay and avoiding the law and being sent back to Mexico?
Or is the church above the law because its a church and they can claim religious immunity (I know thats not the word or phrase I'm looking for)
But should someone who gives immunity or shelter to an illegal immigrant be fined?
Mooch
[question posted by oneandonemakesix]responses and comments:
I notice that the USA members are on this topic a lot Illegal immigrants and how upset and angry they are Maybe I am to passive but i really donot care too much about this because i know they get welfare and other cash considerations and being an ostrich with its head buried in the sand I am sorry i wish i had more compassion about this I just cannot help it Good Luck Tell them to come to Canada where they will get no slack from me Good Luck [vmks31]
Well, the "church" itself, committed no crime and made no decision to give her support or sanctuary. BUT, the members of that church did decide to support her and each and every one of THEM should be fined and or jailed. Actually, this women was a convicted felon and had fled from her SECOND deportation order. Anyone, who aids a convicted felon who is fleeing a legal order (whether it is to go to jail or be deported to their own country) should be arrested and have to face a judge themselves. Plus, she was not just hiding out at the church; she was traveling around the local area and promoting civil disobediance among others. [speakeasy]
No there should be no exceptions for a church or whoever runs the church, if they are harboring an illegal immigrant or any criminal for that matter, the person harboring them should be subject to the law like anyone else. If that lady could use that much energy and time to get back here for a second time, then she had the energy and the time to fill out a bit of paperwork and come here legally. There is no excuse.. period. [craftcatcher]
Well Mooch, good discussion, but I am not sure how to answer this one... mainly because I am not too much up on politics and the law and things like that. I'm not sure about the church... collectively the people are the church. A church organization is usually incorporated .. which protects it from law suits... ( like from injuries of church members.. but I am not sure about other suits.)When a church becomes incorporated, I think it protects the members from being sued for things.. but I don't know about wrong doing. If illegals get welfare help... that is aid, so I don't understand why anyone would want to punish church members.I don't know what to say about this because I have no reference of knowledge on immigration law. That being said, I feel a crime is a crime. Take out the fact that she is an illegal and just keep in the fact that she is a felon. If anyone harbors a fugitive of the law they get into trouble... they can go to jail for protecting them. I kind of see it the same way, I guess. I used to feel bad for them, and I still do in a way.. but they need to come to this company legally. We couldn't go to Mexico through the back door and stay there without citizenship or at least papers that said we could stay there. I think the law should be enforced here also. [OreoCookie3]
I don't think my church would harbor an illegal...that makes her a fugitive from the law and that is just wrong. That's like harboring a murderer. Who's going to do that? None of this makes much sense. No, the church is not above the law and most strive hard to obey the laws as they are promoting Christian values. [estherlou]
I agree with ojassa 100%! A crime is not a crime. There are levels of crime just as there are levels of punishment. And if you wanted to get down to it the only "crimes" per say would be those of the 10 commandments in the church's eyes. I should hope a child molesting rapist wouldn't receive the same punishment as a speeding motorist. [hockeygal4ever]
Yes,oneandone, I think that the church should be fined. It is called separation of church and state. No church should provide sanctuary to someone who is in this country illegally. They have certainly crossed the line when they do this. They should also lose their tax exempt status. [worldwise1]
The Church you talk about did something that Christ also did. He did not judge the adulteress that the pharisees brought to Him. If you ask me whether the church should be fined for harboring a felon, I would say 'maybe'. If you ask me whether the church should be fined for harboring an illegal immigrant, I would say 'no'. An illegal immigrant is not a felon. He or she becomes a felon only if he or she has committed a felony, not because he or she is in this country illegally. [ojassa]
It was her choice to leave the child behind. They offered to let her take him with her but she said no. Why should I feel sorry for her. She decided break the law. She decided to leave him behind. Now she is dealing with the consequences. [lilwonders123]
Well according the laws of US, harboring a felon who is on the run from the law, is a felony itself. No one is above the law including the church. I am sick this. She broke the law. She knew it when she did it. But she wants us to change the rules for and all other illegals (criminals). This is OUR country. If you do like the laws than GO HOME. We have the right to decide what our laws are and to enforce them. I am all for legal immigration. But the illegals should be kicked out and anyone who hides or helps them should be held accountable. She was all upset on the news about being separated from her son. Well she broke the law. She knew the consequences if she got caught. She had the choice of taking him with her. SHE DECIDED TO LEAVE HIM BEHIND. Not us. Maybe she should take all this time and energy she is using on her own country and make it a better place instead of trying to dictate to us what laws we should enforce. [lilwonders123]
This has actually been a practice since the beginning of "churches". It's not only a common act in ALL countries but in the U.S. I think the distinction between church and government make it so it not only isn't illegal but shouldn't be illegal. There are definite lines and any "true" church would not harbor a killer or rapist, etc. that was knowingly one and there to hide. Those general types of horrible crimes are crimes in which the church themself will not be tolerable of and would therefore, perhaps after counseling and praying with the criminal, allow the authorities to enter to take them. As far as I'm concerned there is no need for the law to go into the church other than if there is a true threat to the community and it's surroundings AND if that were the situation I'm sure any clergyman would allow the authorities in without a problem. There's a big difference between "harboring a fugitive" and giving food and shelter to an illegal immigrant. The church generally will act upon ones welfare with concern for their well-being. Providing food and shelter does not condone any wrong doing but does provide a way for someone to remain alive, something every one of God's creatures deserves. The church provides it to many people, often unknowningly, when they feed the homeless, run shelters for the homeless, etc. Should they be fined for helping those people too? I think not. [hockeygal4ever]
She was a felon on the run from the police. They should have turn her out or over to the police. Her crime was being here illegally. By giving her shelter they allowed her to continue to break the law by still being here. That is aiding a fugitive and accessory after the fact. They had not business getting into the middle of it. They should be charged. It is not the church's decision who can be in our country. It is our government. They are not above the law and they do NOT dictate the laws to us. [lilwonders123]
or, maybe, that lady should have been left to rot in the street? [soadnot]
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM&mode=related&search= history of immigrants [soadnot]
The church or the members of the church should know better. They might be thinking it's a good thing to rescue her but since she was a felon it's wrong for the church to give her refuge. They could have coordinated with the immigration people and settle the matter with the authority and not in their own terms. However, this is an eye-opener indeed. Perhaps the church didn't mean any offense by doing that but they could be advised from now on. I also think that if this case is left unreprimanded it will encourage other criminals to do the same. [Jemina]
People usually dont leave theri home town or country for the fun of it. They do so to help improve their lives and that of their loved ones. Poverty is a strange bed fellow and many people do things they would not do otherwise, but for the love of their people. Imagine seeing your kids die of hunger or have no future in your country. It is then that you decide to do something and to hell with laws. I believe it is wrong, but who are we to judge when we do not know the circumstances under which she came to the countary illegally. [ketybhagat]
The laws of our country apply to everyone. Why should they be allowed to break them. Maybe they should take all the energy they put into rallies and demonstrations into fixing the problems in their own country. Instead of trying to force us to change ours. This is not their country. They do not have the right to tell us what our laws should be. [lilwonders123]
i don't know what to say about this..the church must have done its own wat of beliefs to help her because the chuch was known to be unjudgemental to whoever the person who seeks help..criminal or not criminal but the church also must know its limitations upon it..they must surrender the woman because she disobeyed the law..a law is always a law and church law will always be different upon it..the best thing to do is to surrender the woman to the law officer..the church must know where to place their law upon legal laws.. [angel_of_charm]
It could be argued that anyone giving refuge is obeying a higher law. It shouldn't be (and isn't) a crime to seek a better life for you and your family. You do what your conscience allows. BTW, the us against them argument doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny. There are more than enough resources to take care of everyone. [TDonald]
Then we need to change our immigration policies to allow the poor and hungry a LEGAL WAY to come here. But we can not allow people to break our laws. I do not hate foreigners. I do not hate immigrants. I really do not hate anyone. That is really strong word. I was brought up that it was not good to hate anything. But I was also brought up with a sense of right and wrong. Breaking the law is wrong. If you do not agree with a law then you work get it changed. That is how slavery was outlawed and women got to vote. We worked to get them changed. The American people are going to have to be the ones who want it changed. And the majority of American right now do not want immigration reform. We want our existing laws enforced. As a country that is our right. What country has laws that says anyone that wants to can just walk right into their country without permission or visas? NO country does. There will always be some form of border control in every country. [lilwonders123]
Sanctuary is the word I think you wanted :) Yes I think they should be fined b/c now they are using churches as stepping stones to get around things. I also think that any business that hires an illegal should be fined heavily and if they continue to do it then the business should be seized. Maybe then the illegals will start to get the message. AT PEACE WITHIN [twoey68]
i think that the church should be fined if not ignorant of her background. there is no excuse for such activities. [divinelight]
i cant believe im standing up for the church, but ethics are more important than law. [soadnot]
Yes it is like hiding a criminal. If someone enters the country illegaly that is a crime and that makes them a criminal. As with any other kind of criminal anyone who helps them in any way should be punished as well. [kyle930]
I think they should because nobody is above the law regardless of what law it is. If one person can get away with it just by going to a church then why not someone else? Wrong is wrong and there's no way around that. I'm not against our country accepting new members so to speak but do it the right way just like the legals have done. [CatsandDogs]
yes i think anyone harboring an illegal should pay. i know the church was treating her as a 'sister' and loves everyone, but no...it wasn't right. i don't think they're allowed to turn anyone in, like say if someone goes to confession and admits they killed someone...i think that maybe the priest can try to get the person to turn themselves in, but not actually call the cops on them...BUT don't take my word on that, i really don't know the process they HAVE to abide to. BUT these illegals are out of control, and i'm sick of hearing about them. we have 12+ of them living under us, (supposed to be 4 people to a 2 bedroom) well maybe some are legal (the ones who are on the lease maybe)...but the apt complex won't do anything about it. it's places like them (our complex) who are letting these people get away with this crap, and it's getting old. tired of my fam not catching a break, but illegals getting away with everything, or getting help, and the gov't turning the cheek on it...it's old now...something has to be done. [frecklelip334]
The Church is supposed to offer sanctuary, so therefore it cannot be punished for giving shelter. If the lady had committed a criminal act other than being in the country illegally and if she kept that knowledge, the Church should not be punished or fined for doing what they considered was their obligation. However if she did say that she committed a crime, the officers of the Church should persuade her to give herself up. But they cannot kick her out of the Church unless she stole from the collection plate and in that case, they would be obligated to call the police. [suspenseful]
If a person does it then yes they should be fined. If they do iot more then once big time fine. If a church does it then that could be some shacky ground. There is suppose to be seperation of church and state but they also have that imunity thing. I'm not sure how that works because if a killer ran into a church and asked for assylem would they/should they get it? Breaking the law is breaking the law and if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. [mikeyr6000le]
I read all about that, Mooch, and I believe e1 should be heavily fined..maybe even do jail time..for helping an illegal immigrant. [blackbriar]
If that woman had been a US citizen and the people had helped her, they would be charged with aiding and abetting a felon. But since she is an illegal, they don't get punished. I think that stinks. I think anyone who is helping out an illegal should be fined. These illegalls are criminals. I don't have any compassion or sympathy for their plight. Lots of people live in poverty and in situations that stink, and they still obey the law. Illegals should be deported the moment they are caught. That is just my opinion. [vokey9472]