I'm PO'd in PA and I'm also bitter and offended! My anger is not directed at Barack Obama but at the members of the media, politicians and their surrogates and even some of my fellow myLotters who have decided I can't think for myself and have to be told what Senator Obama meant by the remarks he recently made in San Francisco and how I should feel about them. All weekend and all day today I've been hearing how angry I and other Pennsylvania voters should be that an "elitist" like Obama would have the nerve to say we're "bitter and cling to our faith and our guns".
I my opinion it's these people who are being condescending towards us, they're the ones who think we're too stupid to "get" what he was really saying. In the small Pennsylvania town that I've lived in and around my entire life there once were several decent manufacturing plants where someone could get a decent job without a college degree and earn a good living and even get health insurance and retirement benefits. There were also literally dozens of garment factories and mills where hundreds of local people, many of them women, were also able to work for a fairly good wage. Today all of the garment jobs are long gone and the only major employers here are a snack factory and a handful of other smaller plants, none of which are doing all that well. Those who still have one of the few "better" jobs here have found their incomes stagnated in recent years in part because there is no competition at all so the employers that remain don't have to do anything to keep their workers, many of whom have been there for decades. The economy here and in most of our state has been declining for years and many people DO feel ignored by the government. I've known people personally who have told me in past elections they know it really wouldn't make any difference if they based their vote on economic issues because nobody would do anything to help them anyway so they instead voted based on religious views and things like gun control. Even though it's really not a factor here, some of them blamed their plight on things like Affirmative Action and illegal immigration.
I've read numerous posts here by conservatives who say that when someone loses a job they should be able to find a new one and move on and not depend on the government to "fix" it for them. That sure sounds wonderful but it's often easier said than done. To me it's those who say that who are "out of touch" with the real working class! Everyone doesn't have the means to start their own business and if there are no jobs to be found or whatever jobs there are pay a fraction of what you once made and offer few if any benefits, who wouldn't be bitter?
These conservatives also tell of how churches and other charitable organizations are there to help if someone needs it. The tell of volunteers and donations for those affected by different disasters, people who were there to help before FEMA. Yes, we have wonderful churches here and other charities and they do what they can but the needs are so great there are still many people left out. Our snack food plant took donations of blankets and water and took truckloads of it to Louisiana following Hurricane Katrina so our people are a charitable bunch as well but if you don't have enough money to pay the mortgage or put gas in your car you're sure not going to have any to give to charity, now are you?
So you see, I'm quite PO'd by those who think they know how I think and feel better than I do. Do they really think I'm that stupid or are they the ones who just don't get it?
Annie
[question posted by anniepa]responses and comments:
They're the ones who don't get it, Annie. Most of them with those opinions almost invariably still have jobs or still have steady income and have never had to deal with a declining economy, so they truly have no idea how it feels to be increasingly crushed by the pressures of reduced wages vs. increased costs and taxes. They don't have to consider moving because they are living in an area with a somewhat stable economy and can't understand why anyone else would have any difficulties when they're not having any. If there were any justice, they'd suddenly be in the same boat and you can bet they'd be crying the loudest! [jerzgirl]
I meant to include that the current administration reduced taxes at the same time that they dramatically increased spending. That's going to do us in! [jerzgirl]
I would be PO'ed too Annie. They always say things about the American people and they make it look so easy for all of us to do things to better our lives but they have no clue how rough it is for us poor people. They have always had money in their families and lives and most things have been handed to them on a silver platter. They do not know how hard it is to get a good job, healthcare ro anything like that. they also do not what it is like to do without alot of things either. I hate politics. It is a big joke, no matter who gets elected. [stephcjh]
Thank you so much for a wonderful response and for understanding what I was trying to say and not going into the spiel about how these people are just looking for a government handout and how there are plenty of charities to take care of the truly needy - that's total BS! I can't tell you how many people there are in my region who had jobs paying maybe $15 per hour, which is decent for this area, plus health benefits and sometimes even some kind of company pension; once they lose those jobs they're stuck working for half of that, if they're lucky, often part time and no benefits. Sometimes they may be able to do better if they're willing or able to drive 100 each way to work but factor in the gas and they're still having their pay cut in half. Rush Limbaugh and his rabid followers and clones love to talk about the entrepreneurial spirit and of people who have lost a long time job and used that opportunity to start their own business. Gee, doesn't that take money? Your final sentence really caught the essence of Obama's statements. I know I'd certainly never make fun of or put down someone who relies on their faith through good times and bad, and that's not what he was doing either. It's hard to put into the right words so I can sure see how he, by his own admission, "mangled the wording" a bit but I got it anyway. Annie [anniepa]
It really does blow my mind how just by using the word bitter, this has now been taken out of context and blown into a huge affair. Anyone who even listens to the entire context of the statement or just listens to Obama talk or an extended period of time and truly listens will know Obama is not an elitist. I don't see too many elitists running around 79th and Western or 87th and MLK (south side of Chicago). Most elitists won't even venture to US Cellular which isn't nearly as far south. They prefer the friendly confines very, very far northward. I really laugh when I see the $110 million a year Senator Clinton talking about firing guns in the backyard of her 4th home state as though she is a member of the NRA. Gun rights is one area I don't agree with Obama at all, however I think Senator Clinton is foolish to make it seem she in some way supports gun rights. She is as far left if not more than Obama on gun rights. I'm very glad we'll have that debate Wednesday so Obama can call her on some of her attacks and let people really get to know him more. It'll be nice to hear Sen. Clinton explain how she is against NAFTA and free trade when her first lady schedule, $800,000 and her top strategist (before he resigned) say very differently. I'm dying waiting for this debate. [jormins]
Thanks so much for posting the details about Obama's activities in Chicago. You've really done your homework here and I appreciate it. I also am looking forward to the debate! I sure hope that puts an end, for once and for all, of this "bitter" talk. Annie [anniepa]
Honey My opinion of Obama isn't about Pa! I would love to have a black prez and I think it would do alot for this country but I will not vote for Obama.. And Sweets your vote is yours do what you feel best... As for my opinion of Pa I have friends that have lived there all their lives. They love their state! I wasn't happy to hear his statement any more then if it was said about where I live.. I have read and reread your discussion and I'm not sure why you are so angry.. I mean I want to know what is hurting you... Honey you know everybody has an opinion and most do not state it to purposely hurt anyone I live in the most depressed county of NY It's not easy anywhere..... Back to his statement.... It ruffled my feathers.... because I consider myself a citizen of the world and statements like that hurt us all! Nobody need to be making those statements! Just my opinion Doll...Hope I didn't offend you I care about you and wouldn't want to hurt or offend you. xoxoxoxoxoxo [raydene]
Of course you didn't offend me, Hon!. Rather, I think your comments help to illustrate how sometimes things can be misconstrued or taken out of context and how while one person takes one meaning out of it another may take something altogether different. You say you're not sure why I'm so angry and it IS hard to explain. I'm angry that the media has been spending what now seems like an eternity telling me and everyone else that I SHOULD be angry over it having been said that I'm bitter. That's as if to say we should feel the need to apologize or feel guilty for being bitter! I knew exactly what Obama was trying to say the first time I heard/saw them, before the media and the other politicians started telling us all what he meant. First of all, everyone from a rural area or a small town doesn't think alike, and that's the one thing that I'm offended by now, the MEDIA is who is now patronizing us and making fun of us. Now, as for someone saying people "cling to their faith" during tough times, what's wrong with saying that? Nobody said that's the ONLY time they cling to their faith! In a nutshell, here are a few things I've PERSONALLY heard from some of my fellow working-class small town friends during previous campaigns - I'm not really hearing it now because it seems everyone I know is as "Bushed" as I am and are ready for a change: they've said things like "I know (insert candidate's name here) promises things that would help our economy, and I sure wish there would be improvements in our health care system, I'm not happy with the war, etc....but nobody cares what we think here so I'm going to vote for someone who won't take my guns away and who doesn't want to kill babies." You can add various other issues to this scenario, this wasn't a direct quote from one person but a compilation of things I heard different friends and acquaintances say to me, in particular in 2004. Basically, some people who aren't lazy, stupid, mind-numb robots have been feeling down and out and sometimes a bit hopeless and they don't think anyone in Washington D.C. knows or cares that they exist. Sometimes that makes them vulnerable to the well-funded and slickly produced campaign ads by groups like the NRA and the Christian Coalition so they listen to these ads, whether they're based in fact or not, and vote accordingly. I hope that clears it up a little bit for you, Hon! Now, since I know you're a reasonable and fair person who will give me a straight answer, what did you take from those remarks and what about them "ruffled your feathers"? Annie [anniepa]
Yes, everyone is intitled to their opinion but I don't mind telling you that I, too, am bitter, angry, whatever you want to call it, for having to scrape bottom, just trying to stay alive. I have worked hard all my life, and I fought a war for this country, but since a lot of us didn't have an high ranking Officer for a father(McCain), we didn't get anything except shafted, when it was over with. What Obama said is only demeaning if you want to take it that way, otherwise you know darn well he is right. As far as the "Elitist" label, Hillary has had her nose so far in the air for years, she has nor right to talk. Good Article, Annie! [yesah65]
Sorry to hear you are upset. You have every right to be. I am tired of hearing about it too. You have every right to feel how you want about it. But I did get a different take on the whole thing. I took it to mean that he said we were bitter about our ecomony so therefore we were only voting on the issues of "religion, guns and illegal immigration". Also why is it that the media are all upset about the guns and religion comments but yet ignore the whole illegal immigration part of it. I think he is right. We are bitter about our government not doing anything about the economy. And some people will vote based on religion or gun rights or illegal immigration. And not just because they are bitter but because these are issues that are important to them. I think he could have worded it better to get his point across better. But if Obama thinks that if the ecomony turns around and turns wonderful that people will stop caring about illegal immigration he is wrong. Reguardless of the ecomony the population is not going to take any amnesty program nicely. [lilwonders123]
He's admitted several times he could have worded it better and I sure agree there but, poor working or not, I understood it instantly because I've known people to say exactly what he was saying. Basically, they knew they were voting against their own economic interest but that was because they didn't think it would matter anyway. Most of the people here who are really struggling to survive would vote for someone they thought would help them whether that person was for gay marriage and pro-choice or not but when they feel it doesn't matter they go with the social issues. He didn't say people are only religious because the economy is bad or they only "cling to guns" because the economy is bad. Illegal immigration is much of an issue in my part of Pa. My town was originally made up almost entirely of immigrants and there are many still alive here today and many first and second generation immigrants. We do have what we always called "migrant workers" (is that allowed now?) who are here during the harvesting season to pick tomatoes and other fruits and vegetables but nobody else will do it. I don't think they're here illegally but I'm not sure. Regardless, there are some racist people here in the "fancy" part of town but they're not about to vote for a Democrat anyway and never have even though we are a "blue" state. Anyway, when it comes to that issue there is no candidate who is going to give you what you want. That don't dare even say they will because of the large Hispanic vote they don't want to lose. I'm not saying there isn't a problem or that I don't think something should be done about it, I just don't know for sure what and I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I'm just so glad Bush will soon be gone but I'm not expecting any huge miracles. At this point a slight improvement would be appreciated. Thanks for your usual intelligent and thoughtful response, Hon! Annie [anniepa]
From what you're writing it doesn't sound like you are disputing how many of us interpreted his statements. It sounds more like you agree with his statements and you agree with the meaning that many of us derived from it. I personally don't live in a small town and I haven't for the last 18 years so I can't say much about how they vote. I do think it's very insulting to imply that people cling to religion out of some form of bitterness when it's purely out of faith. When I read his statement (before all the media hoopla), I had to reread it 3 times to make sure I got it right. It sounded so much like the statements made by his wife about how bitter Americans are. Of course, you yourself said he may not agree with his wife. These statements show otherwise. As for the difficulty with jobs and all, I'll be the first to agree that it's hard to get a job in many areas. Even with my education and experience it's quite difficult for me to find a job at times. I just don't see how that makes it ok for him to generalize in such manners and assume people cling to religion out of bitterness. It shouldn't be a surprise that there's backlash from his statements. [Taskr36]
I don't interpret it at all the way you do. I didn't take it as assuming people "cling to religion out of bitterness". For me, it's not a matter of whether I agree or disagree with his statements or not, it's a matter of what I HEARD personally from people I KNOW well. I'm not saying for one second I can speak for the whole state or for all small town people in the nation; that's another thing, the media is stereotyping us all when we're individuals with our own individual thoughts. Obama mess up in his wording and I know I don't always say things perfectly (far from it!) either but let me try again - there are friends of mine who are religious all the time, through good times and bad, and who are hunters or gun collectors and the like; in 2004 these people said to ME that they would vote for someone who they thought would help them and our area out economically, at least acknowledge our existence but they knew it wouldn't do any good. Therefore, feeling all other things were equal, they based their vote on social issues such as abortion and gay marriage and things like gun control. As for the backlash, so far it seems to be non-existent. Those who make a big deal out of this media frenzy weren't going to vote for Obama or any Democrat anyway! Annie [anniepa]
So, how do you give a best reponse to someone who posted a discussion? Nicely put and I believe a proper interpretation of the whole comment. [BCMike]
Thank you so much, both of you! I don't know what to say, I always try to speak - or in this case type - from my heart and to use my brain at the same time. Speaking of Best Response, this is going to be a real challenge! Annie [anniepa]
Just remember you live in Pennsylvania and you can do something about it. You can vote in the upcoming Democratic and they probably cannot. As for the conservatives on here. They have their own very unique brand of logic. I used to answer some of the conservative threads and try to just give my point of view with some facts to back me up but they didn't want any facts other than their own slanted ones which they seemed constantly trying to ram down my throat. Now I just leave those discussions alone. Occassionally, I will read one of their threads without responding and I find them amusing. They just seem to be getting fewer and fewer responses and the responses are all from their fellow right wingers. They reinforce their views but nobody else seems to care. People other than their compadres don't even bother answering the discussions with the really provocative headers. Unfortunately, conservatives must have good voting habits. How else could we have been stuck with four years of George Bush? I think that it's a very good thing this Democratic primary is getting so much attention because it could bring the Dems to the polls on election day in droves and any Democrat has to be better than what we've got now. [irisheyes]
Ugh.. I completely agree with you there. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, it's really impossible to have political debates on myLot. We'd need to have a set pair of rules and moderators to keep everything under control. Unfortunately, I doubt that'll happen soon. Annie, I know exactly what you mean. I try to fight the urge to respond but tend to burst from the huge amounts of disagreements I have. As soon as I speak my opinion it ends up in a dramatic drop in my star rating and a bunch of insults thrown my way; Marxist, Communist, liberal loony, illogical, ignorant foreigner, etc.. I sincerely hope Obama ends up winning though. All these distractions really only matter to those who wouldn't have voted for Obama in the first place. So I say, let them have their propaganda fun. It won't do much good. [HawaiiGopher]
Bravo, annie! I am glad to hear someone stand up for their beliefs. But don't be surprised if you get some really mean & nasty responses from some of the folks here who get hot under the collar about politics. I, too, am really sick of the media telling us what to think and trying to manipulate all of us just so that they can rake in more ratings. Sensationalism sells, even if they have to make it up themselves. I believe we are fully capable of deciding for ourselves. Thinking is not exclusive to the "experts" in the media. We simple American voters have the capacity for independent thought too. [nova1945]
Yes, we do have the capacity for independent thought, even those of us who aren't conservative. I'm ready for the mean and nasty responses, I'm used to them by now. I'm sure I'll be told what I "really" mean by my words here. Don't you love it? Annie [anniepa]
A well, WELL written discussion, Annie! I think I know where you're coming from, having lost my job which paid well over $30 an hour last October. Although I have a promise of a job in the works, working from home as I did for AOL, it won't pay NEARLY what I was earning while working for AOL. I have a friend who like me, also lived in Whitehall (next to Allentown) Pa. He was earning at least $30.00 an hour there. The same job in Florida pays $8.00 an hour, even though he has YEARS of experience at the job. There's no easy fix. Property taxes are increasing. My homeowners insurance costs me more than $2143.00 a year, compared to slightly more than $400.00 in Pennsylvania. The deductible for hurricane or named storm damage is a minimum of $4794.00. I could have saved $1,000.00 on the POLICY but then the deductible would have been $11,985.00! Gas? Forget it ... the GOVERNMENT has as they scratch their heads over oil company profits in the BILLIONS with nary a slap on the greedy companies' hands. I wonder why? Maybe it's because our LEADERS have LOTS to gain while the rest of us suffer. I don't want the government to take CARE of me, but I want it to CARE. I want the lobbyists and special interests out of government. I want to see the rich, not get richer because of me and others like me, but I want to see them pair a FAIR SHARE of taxes rather than be excluded with hidden shelters. I'm not for Obama. I'm not for Clinton. I'm not for McCain ... I'm for a government OF THE PEOPLE ... not a government of the "superdelegates" -- I want to vote, but I want my vote to COUNT. I don't think I'm being unrealistic, but we all know the Electoral College is an antiquated system that has no place in today's troubled world. Memo to self: Time to get off the soapbox, RJ. Really. Few people REALLY give a s*it. (C) 2008 RJScott [rjscott]
I really can't add anything to what you said. Thanks for a great response! I couldn't agree more about the Electoral College. I've said that since I first started voting at the age of 20 in 1972. Annie [anniepa]
Y'know, I actually wondered about what you thought about this situation Annie. I guess it has to do with your user name? Anyway, I won't pretend to understand how it is you feel in PA about this, but I saw a quote that I thought was pretty good saying that Barack Obama gets slammed because he's not afraid to tell the truth. I don't think it is a slight to people in the situation described to feel bitter about the jobs going away. Who wouldn't? I wish that it could be less about "spin" and more about telling the truth and really trying to make a difference. I'm sure that's very naive of me, but that is how I feel. I hate it when the media latches onto something like they have this one. I hate it when it becomes about the story instead of the facts. I'm glad to have direct proof from you that the people of Pennsylvania are not as dumb as the media (and Hillary) would like us to believe. I kind of suspected it anyway. [tentwo67]
I can easily understand your frustration, anniepa, and I think the Conservatives are a bunch of pompous a$$e$. Admittedly, there are some people who wouldn't work if a job fell on them, but there are so many more who are ready and willing to work but the jobs just aren't there. Obama has never known what it is like to go without anything in his privileged life so how can he possibly identify with the common people? You are right about people having the right to be bitter. I live in a former industrial city that is struggling because so many jobs have been exported out of the country or taken over by people who are willing to work for peanuts. We have sold out to foreign interests at the risk of leaving a legacy for future generations. [worldwise1]
Sorry, Taskr, if you were offended by my comment. I spoke the truth as I know it to be. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I am not an Obama supporter despite what you may think. I have to call it as I see it. [worldwise1]
Sorry Annie I see it a different way. I did see it as condescending and actually it does have a superiorist ring to it. Don't tell me you've not seen the members and discussions where people tear on other members for advocating gun ownership, or FAR worse than that other members degrading and insulting people because they believe in religion. That basically, if you advocate for guns or self defense you are some crazed person. That if you believe in religion (namely Christianity) you are some racist Godtard(read:stupid) incapable of thought. You cannot tell me you've not seen it, and that is what I saw/heard when I came across the remarks. I don't care if you don't like it, this is how I feel. You might be PO'd by those that supposedly are trying to think for you, but I've also had to deal with this in your post and other people's remarks. Also, its MY opinion and I'm irritated that some have tried to intrude on that even though its my observation here. No one thinks you or anyone is stupid... people saw/heard a discussion and drew their own conclusions. Or am I the only one getting that? What you are saying about small towns though I've seen that too. Another problem with what you've said is that it almost reads as if you're assuming everyone against the remarks has no clue about the plights you described. You are incorrect, some people do know about things like this but have a different opinion as to what the solution is. By the way, I have to ask, what should the solution be? There's a declining economy (been this way for decades), what should be done (and if its the government's job, what are they to do?). [theprogamer]
Just stating my own views Annie. I'm actually a religious invalid (yes just like I'm a political invalid). People have their religions and will defend them... they are protected rights (for now...-_-). And in terms of defense and arms, I believe in ownership and rights of defense. I believe in self-defense without restraint or apology. Someone gets trespassed on (old ethics/philosophy speak), then they have a right of defense (but some don't think they should -_-). They shouldn't be restrained or punished for doing so. No one is bitter for employing it or defending it. That is another general problem I have with that aspect of the debate overall. "Anyway, can I PLEASE try this one more time?" I already read the portion where people will vote based on one or two items... I didn't disagree with that at all, no need to reiterate either. I was describing that some people with the opposing view on this matter already know about economic plights (some even feeling them to in their own lives). I realize people vote in the way you mentioned in the reply part of this discussion. They will vote on one or two specific issues since that is what matters most to them (I've said and reiterated the "pebble in the shoe" several times... I blame my sinuses for neglecting it this time.) What I wanted to discuss in the earlier response was why the comments had an elite tone to them in my observation, I'll not rehash. One thing that was missed was that people aren't always bitter and clinging to guns and religion. Some are bitter due to comments like this as well as other breaches of life and liberty in the country... And others have completely different reasons to be bitter (but the comments seemed to lump people together and then assign too broadly what drives them). Another main point of what I wanted to say is that no one is here to tell others what to think... instead we've got a situation (as usual) of people insulting others because they think. The reason I did have some offense to it was because of the superior type tone taken in the discussion as well. Supposedly anyone who didn't see the comments the "right" way is [pompus,asinine,stupid,selfish,an-a$$,disconnected,full of it,etc]. No one seriously takes to mind people can arrive at differing conclusions here. Instead there are insults and shaming language. "There are some of us who fall somewhere in the middle, so I'm not accusing anyone of anything by what I just wrote above." But you lead off the discusion with anger and accusations at other members... I'll admit, same here. Thats what part of the discussion and part of my response is too, no denying it. No one said you or anyone else shouldn't or couldn't be angry (I understand it), but why be surprised if some people are angry or irritated in return due to other views or other thoughts on the matter..? "Apparently I've said something here to offend you which certainly was NOT my intent at all. This only illustrates what I've been trying to get across all along - sometimes no matter how hard some tries to get a particular point across it can still sometimes be misunderstood and taken a totally wrong way." It does have its tone and I pointed out a couple of areas in this response (just before) and in the previous. I did not say it was wrong, I simply stated my own views an opinions on all matters. That is what we are here for is it not? Other thoughts I'm wondering why I ended with questions when I should have just said less government intervention and less gifts for corporate and oversea interests (and its bad for McCain he's already been caught redhanded on this one). Wait, now I know why... there was mention of one solution being wrong, but no mention of a countersolution. At least with your response to response, that part of the issue is resolved (to current satisfaction). Before I completely forget it this time or if I failed to mention this before, I do see why some would say the comments should be neglected or that they are being spun. No doubts here and I do respect the opinion (shouldn't have to say it but its there). Until next time. Thanks for the good discussion. [theprogamer]
Annie, I have to say right now that this is a way of the media, republican democrat it doesn't matter they seem to think we can't think for ourselves, they like to take a comment that was made, adn twist it out of context make it suit what they want it to say or they want us to believe. these people don't want us to think for ourselves.......... Ok, when someone looses a job they should not depend on the government to fix it for them and just find a new job-- where does the government get off on this one? when we are in a recession, I have to say right now esp since people loosing jobs are going up again, I have to say right now that what good does it do if you can't find a job, people are loosing their homes at alarming rates, and while it may not be the governments fault that it happened it is falling on the responsibility of the government to fix it..... Now that things are out of hand and we are in the recession people want the government to fix things, and the media is playing its own hand in this. Please don't get me started on katrina, and charity. People sent charity down there and places would discard it if it wasn't 'new with tags on', name brand clothes that the red cross would not give out because they were used Mooch [oneandonemakesix]
Dont let it get to you. They always say if they're picking on you they're leaving someone else alone. Not that its okay to do so. YOu know that the democrats have been "slinging mud" for sometime now. It couldnt have went on until November with them just using each other to mock. Sooner or later they had to bring someone into the mix. Unfortunately it happened to be PA. Usually its people on assistance or single parents. I am sorry that you have to feel these negative feelings of bias. You know who you are. THe real myLotters know who and what your about from the discussions and responses you submit. I think its just another example of how the democrats are giving the presidency to the republicans. I am for whom ever will have the publics best interests. I cant imagine having to go through a full term to be served by someone who believes that bashing the opponent is the way to win. Seriously, Annie, dont sweat it. From what I have researched, they're viewed as a joke. Its the same in every state, almost. Shake it off and realize what we're dealing with. Funny isnt it? Good Luck dl [dloveli]
I am not familiar with the particulars of why PA is having the industry move out but I do know that in Wisconsin we have had industry move out because the business climate was not friendly to business. In Wisconsin you have to belong to the union or pay your fair share even if you disagree with the stand of the Union. If you wanted to increase the size of your plant then you had to meet all the new regulations for the existing plant too. Including one that would have forced a company to retrofit all the bathrooms to be handicapped accessible, making the cost of the expansion too much. Another example was a company wanted to expand and fill in some wetlands not allowed by the state. The company even offered to restore some former wetlands and make it a park for the community, rejected by the state. Our tax structure is such that there is no incentive for business to expand and even a dis incentive to expand. When building a new building all new equipment is charged sales tax and then the next year it is charged a machinery tax. The state is constantly adding more procedures that must be covered by health insurance and adding more paid holidays. All these things make it extremely expensive to do business in the state. Why not move to a state where they will trade tax revenue for jobs. Some people realize that all tax on business is passed on to the consumer so a tax break for business is a tax break for consumers. For many politicians they don't understand this and feel that if they make it the law then it will happen. Acting like you will come in and fix it by saying it will be done is being elitist. Is Senator Obama an elitist snob, I think so but then I think most career politicians are elitist snobs. We need people in office that have had to work for a living go out and create jobs for other people and not just sit back and tell everyone how to do it and criticize them when it doesn't work out like they wanted it to. I supported Mitt Romney because he was a conservative, but he was also a business man who knew about creating jobs for other people. He had to work to support himself and to make enough money to support his employees. Most politicians just don't get it and I am sure that they feel the same way Senator Obama does about the common person being something they must deal with but don't like. [bobmnu]
Annie, I come from a small town in pa I'll pm you where and like you our economy is in the decline. It's hard to find a job and when you lose a job it's not like they are there in the grocery line handing out a new one to check out at the register. I have been working for over 14yrs and to tell you the truth health insurance has not been offered in the last round of my jobs. It is next to impossible not to live paycheck to paycheck and the organizations that are there to help are so stretched out. These self rightous upper class politicians have no clue what it's like to live in our world they wouldn't last a month on our paycheck let alone a lifetime. I've lost the taste to vote because nothing changes for our class the only class that gets the tax breaks are the upper class sometime the middle class .. But PA a lot of us in small towns are below the poverty what the state helps us with we accept graciously and we still work we don't play the system because we are still tax payers that just need some help because we are going into a decline in economy. As far as I'm concerned we're probably going to get a lot worse of the next couple years. To me when I look at politics it's not about who is going to do what it's what is the lesser evil anymore. Seriously I would love to have some one come out of nowhere and address the concerns that we common folk have the ones that live paycheck to paycheck that worry about paying for the drugs we so badly need to survive. But I know that in my life time there will never be a politician the is concerned about that. They are about the money and what the money says to do they do it. Wether Obama says he doesnt' take money from the oil companies he gets it else where where he has to make promises. [bellaofchaos]
Hi Annie, If I am correct one of the discussions you are refering to is the 5 years in Iraq one where I was going on and on with that guy about the economy and he was telling me that the war has absolutley nothing to do with this failing economy and putting down those who need help. He called it taking handouts from the government. He really made me mad. To be so cruel. Its like where is your heart guy. How can you be so heartless towards your fellow economy? I don't understand your logic. Ya know. I finally told him he will not change how I feel about this war and I won't even read the next post that he leaves. So he might as well respond. You know my mother in law gave me this scenario. You are a mother and you are on a plane with your small child 2 or 3 years old. You only got one ticket cause you would hold him/her in your lap. The plane starts to loose pressure and the oxygen masks pop out. Who gets the mask first you or your child? [mrsfrodotata]
Annie...as you know, I'm a fellow Pennsylvanian. I know what he was saying and I agree with you. You explained the situation so well there's not much I could add. Our area is in the same boat as yours...and the water is rising fast. The way I see it we have to chose between who's going to give us a bucket, who will stand there telling us we need a bucket, and who's going to throw the rope out to us. [foxyfire33]
I just checked because I was curious...with a population of 62,471 in 2006 ,roughly 1/4 of our population is under 18 and a bit over 16% is over 65, over 11,000 people are disabled, the median household income is about $37,000 and over 11% were below the poverty line already in 2006 (about 17% of all children are below). We are lucky in the sense that we do have several factories still open...including a Dupont and a Cargill...but the Cargill plant seems to mostly "import" their employees, and Dupont and the others are using large numbers of "contractors" who do not provide health insurance and pay lower wages. To be actually employeed by the company they require 2 year degree minimum regardless of whether it has anything to do with the job (and I doubt many of us can afford college at this point)...my s/o is a Dupont employee and got in before the degree requirement but if he were to lose his job he would only be able to be a contractor...and could end up doing the same exact job he does now only for lower pay and no insurance. We're paying almost $3.50 a gallon for the cheapest gas already, milk is about $4.00...the welfare to work program is pointless (like the last time I tried they wanted me to work 30 hours a week for minimum wage, pay half my childcare costs for 3 children just so they could be 'kind' enough to give me $214 a month in food stamps and $107 cash assistance -and that was after they took away the $200 a month in child support I was getting)...our seniors really are choosing between medication, food, or heat...good friends of ours just had to file bankruptcy to save their house all because their daughter 'dared' to get leukemia and the state refused to pick up the 1/4 of a million dollar bill their employer's health insurance didn't cover. Why? Because those charges were from various out of state contract companies working for the in state hospital that was nice enough to save the little girl's life. But here's the kicker of that situation...if they hadn't tried to be responsible parents with jobs and health insurance and instead just lived off of welfare then all the bills would have been covered. How does that make sense? The current system seems to reward the ones who are already well off and the ones who don't want to bother trying. The rest of us who struggle and want to "do right" by our families and the senior citizens who have worked hard their entire lives get screwed over. [foxyfire33]
I really don't know what to say. You're obviously an elitist. Haha, no seriously though, greatly put. It's nice to see someone who can speak my thoughts out. We need more people like you around. [HawaiiGopher]
Thank you! I'm an elitist, all right...lol! Seriously, did you hear about the Fox News commentator who said Obama was an elitist and that his "Harvard Law School stuff" was coming out; guess where this commentator went to school? Yep, HARVARD. I guess it takes one to know one! Annie [anniepa]