Ok, I'm going to venture into the political arena here. Hopefully I will walk away unbloodied. lol
I saw this in this morning's paper:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_re_us/us_california_lawmaker_sex_comments
This conservative, pro-family California legislator resigned after being caught on tape talking as if he had had several affairs. When I found the article online it had been updated to say that he denied being guilty of having affairs, and that he was just guilty of inappropriate talk. He claimed that his resignation was only to avoid distracting the legislature from more important matters.
Yeah, I don't really believe that's why he resigned. And I'm sure he was pushed into resigning. But I digress..
What I wanted to ask was, does it matter? And I expect I'll probably get very different answers from my European friends than the ones I get from my American friends. We shall see. lol Does it matter, if a person is a good legislator (I'm not saying this guy is or isn't, though it seems his career has been rather undistinguished), whether he was caught on tape sex talking? To take it a step further, if he's doing a good job, does it matter if he had an affair or affairs?
Why?
[question posted by dawnald]responses and comments:
I believe that you already know that being in the public office as a legislator is a public trust. And if this legislator that you said has been caught about his other affairs, I believe that it matters to the public. A legislator is a leader whether he likes it or not. And people look up to him. If he tainted his reputation by doing immoral acts, then his decision to resign is the best he could do. For me, it matters for a leader to keep himself clean and pure...happy [learn2earn]
I would like to think that legislators have a very high degree of integrity, and this behaviour, whether loose talk (lying) or immorality, shows a distinct lack of integrity. [cloudwatcher]
It only matters if the sex talk comes from anyone right of center. [ParaTed2k]
me either, I don't believe for a second that his "witchhunt", as I call it, was honestly and sincerely motivated in the best interests of the country... [dawnald]
Well normally I'd say we should mind our own business, and their lives off the clock ( so to speak) aren't our concern. In the old days being gay was an issue because of blackmail issues. We've grown out of that, I think? Each case however should be looked at by the ethics police! This guy just happened to be getting kinky with a lobbyist. This raises some alarm bells in my head! I don't know about yours!wink tdemex [tdemex]
In my thinking "I take full responsibility" is superfluous and ludicrous. No one was holding a gun at his head, forcing him. Therefore it WAS his responsibility. [cloudwatcher]
Dawnald, First, you can only get bloodied here if you take any of this personally, lol. I believe the real issue here was that this politician was a huge champion of family values. It is one of those instances where the people really fighting FOR family values couldn't afford to have this man championing them. Family values and sex talk or affairs just don't mix. [rodney850]
I'll only take it personally if somebody starts attacking me. All opinions (respectfully worded) are more than welcome! Family values and affairs definitely don't mix. Sex talk? That's a little more of a gray area for me... [dawnald]
IMO, it only matters if the person has a history of shaming others for their affairs, or takes the stance that they are above doing something like that. In an ideal world, business and pleasure would not mix, and one would not effect the other. Politics is unlike other businesses though- personal and business almost have to mix, or at least bump up against each other. So for a politician to take the moral stance that those who have affairs are ineffectual legislators, and then turn around and do it themselves, yeah, it matters. [milkmaid]
In this case, the guy was running on a family values platform. So if he did have an affair, that looks pretty hypocritical... [dawnald]
A legislator makes or brings to the front new laws, right? Forgive my ignorance. If he was championing some cause and then in his private life living in a way that was against this particular cause then he should have resigned as he was living a hypocritical lie. BUT: I could never understand why the President Bill Clinton had to have his affair exposed on news all over the world. The lady could always have said no and he was not the first (or the last) President to have an affair. What happened to President Clinton was between him and his family - not the world. Women fling themselves at men in power and these men do not always say no. It is a power thing with them too. On the whole, it should not matter but with me, it would depend on what was being legislated. Thinks: Have I got that rightconfused [cynthiann]
Jefferson's affair is well documented I believe. Washington's is more of a rumor. Glad you forgave him for shooting your ancestor. lol [dawnald]
Well from my two countries (Germany where I now live, and the UK which is my country of origin), I have never heard of anything quite like this. It is a strange version of family values when you start talking dirty in the media - children after all pick up what is in the media. And would it influence them at all? I would not like to answer that from here. As for whether he should have gone - that is his choice if he thinks that it is embarrassing. Or the choice of his party if they thought that he had seriously upset their values, and again was an embarrassment. I have seen worse examples of behaviour from people (on both sides of the Atlantic) who have stayed at their post and refused to leave. I would not personally have thought that it was that serious. [astonysh]
Maybe he's getting the hell out of there before somebody finds out that it really was an affair! Who knows? [dawnald]
i don't think it does matter or affect how someone does their job, it's his personal life after all and i don't think anyone would say that has to be perfect for someone to be competant. however if he is trying to say publicly something along the lines of 'affairs are bad' (i would assume that's a partial translation of 'family values') then he is a hypocrite and should quickly rephrase his spiel to something like 'affair are bad - unless you're me' [jb78000]
fat chance that that would get somebody elected though! [dawnald]
We tend to assume, if he talks or acts in an immoral way he will conduct his business, in that same way. I have not found this to be true, men seem to be able to separate their sex lives from other parts of their life. I guess you could say they can compartmentalize their lives. I am not sure if I believe this or not. Certainly in today's world any person who speaks in a manner not acceptable is if nothing else just plain stupid. One can't help but think at least he had a self destructive motive. Our politicians are voted in to do a job for all the rest of us and if he can't even protect his own interest how can I expect him to protect mine? I don't really care what he does behind closed doors as long as it is not illegal or abusive, but I do want it to stay behind those doors. [savypat]
I do wonder how he could have been so careless, but then nobody expects to get caught. [dawnald]
That's the way i felt when they impeached clinton. not that i approve of people doing that, i don't but if it is not affecting their job performance it is not the whole world's buisness who they are sleeping with. [ANTIQUELADY]
Rodney, I agree that there was an abuse of power. I did not miss that point at all. [dawnald]
Generally I wouldn't care if a politician wanted sex with goats as long as they did their job welllol If they have a high moral stance publicly and do this in private I would care as it makes them dishonest and hypocritical in my opinion. If they made no comments about family values/ morals etc then I would not be bothered. It is dishonesty and things like that which bother me more than anything. Politicians in the UK have proven themselves to be a corrupt bunch recently so they should all be fired and replaced by zoo animals who would do a better job I thinkhappy [mike197601]
Dirty rotten scoundrelsangryangryangry [mike197601]
You know...I guess maybe the issues, with this, have to do with trust. But, honestly, WHAT politician CAN be trusted anyway?confusedblink [Irishfrndly65]
Thanks I needed that.... Hugs back... [dawnald]
To err is human...to forgive devine.....but I think there might just be a matter of trust.....if he is good at his job though.....then his personal life should be left out of it....we all have little skeletons in our closets.....so to me it would depend on his record at doing his job. [jillhill]
I mostly agree but I do think if he was having an affair that he's a big fat hypocrite given his stand on "family values"... [dawnald]
After reading the comments and the wonderful wit of the commenters, I'll have to re-read the discussion. I see the main issue here as hypocrisy. He cannot be a "voice" for something when his actions deny his voice - and that applies whether it was merely loose talk (lies) or immorality. Both denied what he was standing for in public and undid any good he might have achieved. Whatever happened to good old-fashioned integrity? It seems rather rare these days, and almost non-existent in politics and big business. [cloudwatcher]
Integrity does appear to be in short supply. Sad, but true... [dawnald]
Hi dawnald, We all know what politicians are most of them tell lies to line their pockets, but most of them are family men and show good example to the public, to me it does not matter if they are doing a good job or not but these sort of sex talks or having affairs is a no no for me, they should be setting a good examples to the public, it is just disgusting. He was having affairs so that was the only reason he resigned. Tamara [tamarafireheart]
that and he was pressured into resigning by his "family values" party members... [dawnald]
Hi dawnald. I don't think anyone should be affected by controversies like this. As long as the legislator performs his duties very well, it doesn't matter. But once there is a case or complaint filed against him, he should be put under preventive suspension, but never resign if he isn't guilty. Neil [neildc]
hi dawnald I have wondered that too, if the person does an excellent'job then his personal life should perhaps stay' personal . I know we expect our leaders to be perfect 'but who among us is completely perfect? I know its probably 'not p leasing to a lot of people that he might have have 'had an affair. [Hatley]
yeah, thing is, as I'm hearing more about this, he was talking about a lobbyist, he's a proponent of family values, at a minimum the guy's an absolute hypocrite. [dawnald]
I think it's his position that makes him look hypocritical. Maybe he was doing a good job, but there will probably be others that could do just as good of a job or probably better. Those that make the laws often aren't very good at practising what they preach. If they want people to have respect for the laws, then they should be extra careful that are setting a good example. [DiamondDogs]
Not so much his position as a legislator but as a legislator who ran for office on a family values platform. That's what makes him appear to be a hypocrite, I'd say. [dawnald]
well..if he's married,and having affairs (potentially)then he'd be lying to his wife..and therefore could (potentially)lie in office about other things.. i think that's the real reason anybody cares..that and people love dirt,especially opponents. if he had any other job in the world than public office,nobody'd probably even notice though. [scarlet_woman]
That and the fact that he was 1) messing with a lobbyist and 2) had run for office on a family values platform [dawnald]
This is such a minefield. We all like to think that our leaders should act with probity and honesty when dealing with legislative matters. I am often surprised how politicians who pronounce themselves anti-war, pro-nuclear disarmament etc, swop sides of the fence when they get into power. "I love my wife and cannot countenance ever making love to another woman. Cor, look at Dawn. She's sexy. She could have me any day". An immature statement (true nevertheless LOL) but does it make me someone that you'd no longer trust? (Assuming that you do trust me now). I think that if I stand up and scream blue murder about "rights" then I do have a responsibility to not descend into hypocrisy. Especially in public life. It breaks a trust with the public and that is never a good or acceptable thing. [p1kef1sh]
lol well now I trust you far more than many people I've met online. It does break a trust with the public, especially when it's completely contrary to the values the person was loudly advocating during his campaign. [dawnald]
These days with so much sexual stuff being thrust upon us, having an affair is probably no big deal to many. However, no matter how cavalier our attitudes have become on this subject, unfaithfulness hurts. It hurts the spouse who has kept the pledge to "keep me only unto thee as long as we both may live." It hurts the children who see a parent dishonor the other parent. It hurts the sexual partner who will forever be classified as a home wrecker or potential home wrecker and an adulterer and who will probably never benefit from the affair. If this legislator will not do right by his family, he is worse than an infidel and why should anyone trust him to do right by the people he represents. If he can be persuaded to abandon his pledge to his wife, isn't the potential there to abandon his pledge to those he represents? [6precious102]
definitely coming across as a hypocrite... [dawnald]
I know most of the politicians is having an affairs with other woman other than their wife or husband. I don't know why they are so greedy about flesh. Doing such love making to their partners is the same with those outside relationship. Well in that case my friend. i don't agree that never mind about those acts of a politicians doing such unethical deeds. Being a public officials as a public figure they should be a model of the society, right? Even do if he/she is doing a good jobs. It's not a matter because we are talking here is decency and good character as a public officials. How can we rely to that person that he/she manage the whole country, state or province since he/she cannot manage her/his house hold? Have a nice day! [aerous]
Yup! my friend, because I have no vices. I hate vices and I don't like to teach my children for not being a good example for them. Have a nice day! [aerous]
What's ironic is it's always some fool who campaigned on their high morals. Big family man blah blah blah. I wonder why they don't just stop using that b.s. as campaign fodder? I just want to know if they are going to represent me and my particular interests and goals. Ideally, to me their sex life should only be a family matter. It does become the public's business if they spent government money on these women (or men in some cases.) Or perhaps if the "insignificant others" lol were lobbyists, which seemed to be the case here, there could be a tremendous conflict of interest. [PennyLaine]
Yes, the fact that it was a lobbyist does scream "conflict of interest", doesn't it? [dawnald]
Yes, especially here. When one is seen as being unfaithful to their wife, goes against the basic beliefs of most Americans. To be true to whom you married. [General_Spacey]
Sort of separate from the job though, but the family values thing sure makes him out to be a rank hypocrite. [dawnald]
Yes. Legislators are models to the rest of the country. During Clinton, some underage pregnant girls were asked why they did what they did, and one of many answers was well why not if the President can do it. I would much rather have my representative be of high more character and make mistakes, than be a scum bag who's a good elected official. How can you trust what he tells you if you know he isn't an upstanding moral person? [andy77e]
I had a situation once where I did something wrong and I justified it by saying that my Father had done something like that and if it was OK with him, it was OK for me. I was young and stupid. Since then I have made myself a promise not to do such things. I am not disgusted with myself. I am human, I made a mistake, I resolved not to do it again and I haven't. I have forgiven myself. And no, I wasn't being sarcastic. [dawnald]
It doesn't matter unless it affects his ability to do the job for which he was "hired". His personal life is his own problem, not ours. At the same time, we can't help wondering what else he cheats on besides his family. [cobrateacher]
I come from the State of New York. Many of you may know that there was a fairly recent scandal here, involving our governor, Eliot Spitzer. Before Eliot Spitzer became Governor of NY, he was our Attorney General in NY. As Attorney General, he is considered to be the highest judicial person in our state. Many of his duties involve investigating crimes and offenses against the people of NY. A big part of his platform was Law and Order for all--as NY doesn't have the best reputation for that sort of thing. One of his main investigations involved the prostitution industry. Now whether you believe prostitution to be wrong or not, it is illegal in my state--so that makes it wrong. He went after them tooth and tong. Many people were so impressed with his righteousness and fervor in ferreting out the "bad guys" that he was elected Governor. He is a very aggressive, demanding, "Type A" personality and ticked some people off. Shortly after his election, the news was leaked that he was suspected of having liaisons with many prostitutes, one in particular. As it turns out, he belonged to a very exclusive call girl brothel for the rich and famous and had been a member for some time. All the time he was Attorney General and up until he was "caught", as our Governor. It was one of those meteoric downfalls. He was ousted within the week. Right or wrong, I felt betrayed as one of his constituents. I also felt extremely sorry for his wife--a very fine lady and his 3 beautiful teenage daughters. Yes, and they stood by "their man", which made me ill. The next step was to find and install a replacement Governor, the one we have currently, David Paterson. As it turns out, Mr. Paterson had also strayed outside his marriage. Surprise! However, he at least had the foresight (or his party did) to try and circumnavigate any criticism by publicly announcing his affairs before he took office! However, since that time, due to his ineptness, he can now claim to have the lowest political rating in our state's history! Suddenly, there are people clamoring to have Eliot Spitzer back! Mr. Spitzer, who climbed into the woodwork, is now being seen in public again--so something is afoot. Is it any wonder people say truth is stranger than fiction? I mention all this to show that integrity and morality are only considered to be important to politicians when it's convenient. I expect people I elect to have integrity, but like the old saying "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride." Thank you for letting me take your time and space. :-) [nyhollyjean]
I believe you are both correct--how sad for us all, and for them. :-( [nyhollyjean]