Deinonychus antirrhopus

Steve,
I'm at a loss as to why you don't think No. 3 is a good thing. Any American deciding to take one of those "low skill/low paying jobs" is doing so because they've decided it is an improvement over their current condition.

The fact is that the poor and uneducated in America are consuming most of the social services, and committing most of the crime. Why on earth would we want to increase the number of poor and uneducated in the US? Let's set some standards for immigrants, like maybe allowing in more HB1 visa types.

Because poverty is a relative concept. Raising those wages wont solve the problem of poverty. Hence you list of problems wont be solved.

You have totally bastardized the arguments regarding illegal immigration. As you so gleefully stated, it is very simple: just not simple in your way.

The old adage applies: "When in trouble, spend money." Spend it for troops, border patrols, fencing, processing centers, or whatever is needed.

1. The border must be sealed as tight as practicable, using fencing, sensors, border patrols, and troops. This will reduce the uncontrolled inward flow to a managable level, and will tend to limit the reentry of those who have been deported before.

2. The employers of illegals must be found, arrested, jailed, fined, and given ever increasing penalties for violating the law. This will eventually reduce the inward flow due to lack of work for illegals, but would increase the flow for legal workers.

Every citizen has an obligation to support getting illegal immigration under control. It occurs to me that quite a few so-called citizens do not care to do this. They are culpable too, and should be punishable also for aiding and abetting illegal immigrants.

3. It must be possible to arrange a guest-worker program that is fair and equitable, well-managed, and with sufficient slots available that all who apply can hope to get a permit and relatively foolproof ID. They should be forced to register with the police.

It must also be possible to increase our allocation of slots for permanent immigration from Mexico and other Latin American nations. We should encourage legal immigration as well as legal Guest Workers.

4. The current laws must be enforced strictly, and all law officers must be allowed to participate directly. Currently, many law officers simply ignore the problem, unless crime is involved.

5. Illegals in the US now will be found mainly through their employers, law enforcement efforts, social service offices, or at medical facilities. They should be detained, identified, fingerprinted, and tracked. To continue to stay in the US for a fixed period, such as a season or so in the fields, they should be forced to register, and contract to pay substantial one-time fines for breaking the law, or else be deported.

For them, there must be no amnesty and no track towards citizenship, unless they return to their country and submit the proper papers for legal entry into the US.

Under these rules, wages will by and large take care of themselves.

This more comprehensive solution is needed because any less will only perpetuate the problem.

You have totally bastardized the arguments regarding illegal immigration. As you so gleefully stated, it is very simple: just not simple in your way.

The old adage applies: "When in trouble, spend money." Spend it for troops, border patrols, fencing, processing centers, or whatever is needed.

1. The border must be sealed as tight as practicable, using fencing, sensors, border patrols, and troops. This will reduce the uncontrolled inward flow to a managable level, and will tend to limit the reentry of those who have been deported before.

2. The employers of illegals must be found, arrested, jailed, fined, and given ever increasing penalties for violating the law. This will eventually reduce the inward flow due to lack of work for illegals, but would increase the flow for legal workers.

Every citizen has an obligation to support getting illegal immigration under control. It occurs to me that quite a few so-called citizens do not care to do this. They are culpable too, and should be punishable also for aiding and abetting illegal immigrants.

3. It must be possible to arrange a guest-worker program that is fair and equitable, well-managed, and with sufficient slots available that all who apply can hope to get a permit and relatively foolproof ID. They should be forced to register with the police.

It must also be possible to increase our allocation of slots for permanent immigration from Mexico and other Latin American nations. We should encourage legal immigration as well as legal Guest Workers.

4. The current laws must be enforced strictly, and all law officers must be allowed to participate directly. Currently, many law officers simply ignore the problem, unless crime is involved.

5. Illegals in the US now will be found mainly through their employers, law enforcement efforts, social service offices, or at medical facilities. They should be detained, identified, fingerprinted, and tracked. To continue to stay in the US for a fixed period, such as a season or so in the fields, they should be forced to register, and contract to pay substantial one-time fines for breaking the law, or else be deported.

For them, there must be no amnesty and no track towards citizenship, unless they return to their country and submit the proper papers for legal entry into the US.

Under these rules, wages will by and large take care of themselves.

This more comprehensive solution is needed because any less will only perpetuate the problem.

No manning, your points simply re-enforce mine plus toss in the possibility of xenophobia. There is a way to allow low skill immigrants to enter the country and still improve the national security aspects of the problem.

Further, this notion of a fence, sensors, patrols, etc. is probably going to cost as much as immigrants already cost. Further, your notion of going after the demand side of the problem worked really well for drugs hasn't it. Yes, lets create another avenue for criminals to get rich and invent ever increasingly sophisticated methods for gaining access to the coveted U.S. market.

Under these rules, wages will by and large take care of themselves.

Yes, as I noted it will raise them.

This more comprehensive solution is needed because any less will only perpetuate the problem.

Often times a problem has more than one solution. I grant that yours is one, but that kind of isolationist/xenophobic approach is one that strikes me as a bad policy.

Steve,

Sorry, xenophobia is not in the equation here. The central points I made shore up the legal aspects of a solution, and have zero to do with hate of Latinos or foreigners in general.

Perhaps you missed the basics: allow sufficient guest workers; substantially increase allocations for legal immigrants; sign up most current illegals and allow them to stay and work. These legal workers could eventually qualify for citizenship, if they so desire.

Those who do not pass any sort of muster should be deported,or prevented from entering in the first place, especially criminals with records here or in the Americas. Criminals, and other undesirables, should not be in line for citizenship, and if you think that is xenophobic, I hope you never get near an INS board.

Dithering around with such abominations as Minimum Wages, or some kind of enforced wage structure opens the door to all kinds of avoidance schemes. I suggest that free market forces should be used to establish wages instead of further government interference.

We must accept that the borders need to be closed and controlled, and we must pay the price for our neglect of them over the past 25 or 30 years. With our multi-trillion dollar economy, I am sure that we can afford to do a good job.

Any cost reductions in our support for illegals, both state and nationwide, as a result of better security at the borders would be a real plus. Why, if it is possible to count it up properly, we just may find that it is a wash. Effectively increased security alone is worth a bundle.

At the end of the day, the key differences I see in our positions are: denial of entry or citizenship to criminals or other undesirables; obliging every citizen to do their duty to support the cleanup; and the use of free market forces to establish wages.

Surely you are not suggesting that we give employers a free ride in our "comprehensive" solution?

I suggest to you that forcing employers to toe the mark would have an immediate and dramatic effect on the inflow of illegals, simply because the work would dry up for those who have no proper permission to enter the country. Really stiff economic penalties for rogue employers would have a salutary effect rather rapidly, I suspect. But, here the problem is enforcement. We have let illegal entry, employment, and residence get out of hand, so it would take significant effort to bring employers into line. It can be done, however, I believe.

Coupled with a good worker program, the incentive of legal available work would jam our offices with applications for legal entry.